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Thread: Names of basic cuts

  1. #16
    Kris Guest

    Wink

    "I don't know if people are cutting welcome mats or not!"

    Now that doesn't sound very friendly.

  2. #17
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    Oops - that comment wan't intended as a slight, just a funny. I don't know who all uses that term.

    I could be wrong about the goza=welcome mats thing anyway.

    I'll try to be more funny next time!

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  3. #18
    Kris Guest

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    I thought it was funny. I was joking ; ) hehe.

  4. #19
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    "Say ... gimme a cut of that prime rib...."

    Some more cuts, slices, and dices from Yamada Asaemon's["Kubikiri"] "Do It Yourself" manual.

    1. RYO KURUMA
    2. TAI TAI Suritsuke
    3. KARIGANE Wakige
    4. CHIWARI Ichinodô
    5. KESA Ôkesa
    6. TACHIWARI Kami Tachiwari
    7. WAKIGE Ni no Dô
    8. KURUMASAKI Ai no Kuruma
    9. SURITSUKE San no Dô
    10. SHIMOTATEWARI
    11. SAN NO DÔ Kurumasaki
    12. NI NO DÔ Hachimaime
    13. ICHI NO DÔ Hondô
    14. KOKESA
    15. TABIGATA
    16. SODESURI
    X = Hiza Tachi
    Y = Hiji Tachi

    CREDIT: Graphic and text "borrowed" from MEIBOKU [without permission] at http://www.meiboku.demon.co.uk/guide/mei/tamesh/
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  5. #20
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    Arrow

    Greetings!

    I got an inquiry...

    I always understood that Gyaku-Kesa-Giri and Kiri-Age were two different cuts although done in the same direction...

    I was told that Kiri-Age was a superficial cut or a cut that "does not enter" the body so to say and that Gyakute-Kesa-Giri was a more profound cut or "one that enters" the body.

    Is this true?


    Best,

    Arnold Vargas
    Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
    &
    Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

  6. #21
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    That's a good question.

    I've always understood that Gyakukesa is (usually) used as an alternate term for Kiriage - or vice versa. Whether a given cut would be considered "right or left" is another story, as you can see from the previous posts.

    Gyakukesa/Kiriage is, IMHO, the weakest fundamental cut in swordsmanship biomechanically. But, it is tactically advantageous when applied correctly.

    In Shinkendo we exploit this cut alot in our Tanrengata, Tameshigiri and Suburi practices; and to a lesser degree in our Battoho (all performed from standing, BTW). We tend to move pretty large, and maximize available physical resources to generate effective power (sorry, a little hard to explain).

    There is an account, of which I am quite foggy on the specifics right now, of the effective use of Kiriage in defense of an attack on a lord. I believe there was a siege on a castle, and when the attackers reached the room in which the lord was secured in, one of the body guards took out a handful of aggressors by cutting kiriage just under the Doh (entering upwards between the Doh armor and Kusazuri skirt). It seems to me I read this in one of Obata Sensei's old books in fact (maybe "Crimson Steel"?).

    However, my guess would be that it might be generally more effective for attacks to the insides of the extremities and armpits because of the angle and lack of relative power.

    A very hard cut to defend against, in my experience, but difficult to learn.

    HTH,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #22
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    Hello Arnold,

    I always understood that Gyaku-Kesa-Giri and Kiri-Age were two different cuts although done in the same direction... I was told that Kiri-Age was a superficial cut or a cut that "does not enter" the body so to say and that Gyakute-Kesa-Giri was a more profound cut or "one that enters" the body.
    Literally, "kesagiri" means "priest's robe [kesa] cut [kiri];" gyaku-kesagiri is "reverse [gyaku] priest's robe cut"

    "Kiri-age" is "cut [kiri] up/rising [age]. "Age" is pronounced as "ah-gay" and means "upwards, ascend, up, rising, etc."

    In our training (Toyama Ryu/Nakamura Ryu), kiriage and gyakukesagiri are interchangeable terms. Either cut can be superficial (if your maai is off), or a hewing cut. These terms (to us) merely describe the direction of blade travel in general terms.

    I would be surprised if other schools did not have differing definitions.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  8. #23
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    Guy:

    Ah yes, another example of the refined and aesthetic sensibilities of Japanese culture. Your little...uhhh...diagram reminded me of a story:

    A high-ranking bushi has just received a bright, shiny, razor-sharp new sword from a famous smith, and he's dying to try it out. He arranges to be the executioner for a criminal who is scheduled to be executed the next day.

    Upon going to the execution ground and informing the condemned man that he will act as his executioner, the man askes him what cut he is going to use to dispatch him. The bushi proudly and arrogantly declares that he intends to use the most difficult cut of all, which will cut the man in two, all the way from the shoulder to the pelvis, with the balde passing through the stomach before exiting just above the hip bone(in the version I heard it was a kesa-giri, but that doesn't jibe with your chart. I suppose a do-giri would work for the purposes of the story).

    The man sighs with regret, and, startled by this display of bravado, the bushi demands to know what is bothering him. The condemned man said: "Well, if I had known you were going to use that cut, I would have swallowed a few big rocks so that I could spoil the edge of your sword!"

    Da-DUM-bum (rim shot, cymbals).

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  9. #24
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    Ha! I love that story Earl-san. I believe it is retold in the book "Sword and Same".

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #25
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    "As visions of Dotanukis danced through his head"


    Eh! Yaaaaa!

    Couldn't resist
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  11. #26
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    Arrow

    Hi! And thanks for the replies!

    Now, you mean Gyaku-Kesa-Giri and Kiri-Age are two terms for the same cut? And these two are done in the same fashion?

    I was told that Gyaku-Kesa-Giri had like a "pull" to it at the end and that Kiri-Age was a complete "stroke". But this I was told...

    Any comments will be appreciated.

    Best,

    Arnold
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

  12. #27
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    Arnold,

    Now, you mean Gyaku-Kesa-Giri and Kiri-Age are two terms for the same cut? And these two are done in the same fashion?
    In our practice, yes. Again -- different schools, different meanings and implementation. "Your mileage may vary" [as others are wont to quote].

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  13. #28
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    Arrow

    Thanks Guy!

    So then it could be okay and the person who said that the two cuts are different in technique although in the same direction...can be correct in terms of style?

    He did Kiri-Age sliding the rear foot and Gyaku-Kesa-Giri with a step instead of a slide...see? But this may be correct in terms of a style being different, right?

    Best,

    Arnold
    Arnold - Kanatokogakure Shugenjutsu

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