Very Interesting

[Moko]

http://futen.spsp.com/Interview1/interview1.html

Excerpts:

M.C. Do you have any films of Takamatsu Sensei? I'd love to see how he moved.

T.S. One film does exist, but there is no need for you to see it – the way I move is the same as Takamatsu Sensei; learned from training with Takamatsu Sensei, Kumura Sensei, Sato Sensei and other Masters. As you continue to master this Art you will move as he did. Very few people that claim to be teaching our art actually move correctly. That is why I have made video tapes so that futrue generations can tell who is truly my student.

And my favourite:

M.C. In Gyokko Ryu are there special training tools?

T.S. Yes, nuts.

I've been playing with mine for years. Wondered why I was getting better. Thought it was all those seminars.

[JamesGarcia]

Yes nuts... Walnuts, Kurumi in Japanese.

They may be used not only to condition your fingers and hands, but also as weapons or metsubishi. The Ninja skill of tailoring weapons can make an non-assuming walnut into all kinds of things that pass normal scrutiny. hatsumi Sensei said that because these are a product of nature, this is also an example of using nature to one's advantage.

We also use Dried waterchestnuts / Makibishi as natural caltrops.

As to moving like a Takamatsu Sensei, Mr. Tanemura would be basing this on his one meeting with him (I hear he once claimed to have met him three times??? which both Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Manaka refute) and training with students of Takamatsu Sensei that had not trained with him since Takamatsu Sensei accepted Hatsumi Sensei as a student, which Akimoto Sensei supported. I wonder if the entire fifteen years, Takamatsu would train anyone else or not.

Boys??? Has your teacher Mr. Tanemura spoke on whether Takamatsu Sensei trained anyone after accepting Hatsumi Sensei as a student?

[John Lindsey]

Jamie,

Kimura Sensei stayed with him till his death. He only lived a short distance away...

Oh, and Sato Sensei received Gikan ryu menkyo kaiden in 1963 due to Akimoto's death...

I think Fukumoto started shortly after Hatsumi as well.

[John Lindsey]

In regards to the first quote, the year was 1989 when Mr. Coleman conducted the interview. I have talked to both him and Tanemura Sensei about this. Michael was still in his early years of training and Sensei was trying to tell him to focus on the Genbukan. The movement issue at that time relates to how many in the West were moving, such as was popular at that time (godai, fire mode, etc).

Tanemura Sensei is trying to say there was a difference in how he and the others, including Hatsumi, moved.

Sensei has also said that Takamatsu's movement is unique, just like everyone else. We should not try to copy his movement, but focus on what Tanemura Sensei is teaching. It is cool to watch the old videos, but Takamatsu was part of our tradition, but not part of our edition.

So, quotes can be confusing if you try and take them at face value, just like Hatsumi's "trained with Takamatsu every weekend for 15 years" quote is not true...

[JamesGarcia]

Hmmm... This is something else I have been wanting to ask about...

You just said Mr Sato received Akimoto Sensei's line of Gikan Ryu' and this is something I have not heard or seen on websites until just recently. This is something else that has changed since Mr. Tanemura broke from the Bujinkan to start the Genbukan.

In an old letter Mr Tanemura put out on Gikan Ryu' after receiving So'ke for Gikan Ryu', he shows the lineage going from Takamatsu Sensei directly to Sato Sensei and states "given by Takamatsu Sensei." This lineage also follows a different line of So'ke 's from the founder and are a different line when Ishitani Matsutaro received it, one from Uryu Gikanbo and one from Ishitani Takeoi Masatsugu.

In the same article he writes, "Takamatsu Sensei had also awarded such to his oldest student Akimoto Fumio. But this was also based through his family's line in Gikan Ryu and also the secret Shoken Ryu Daken Taijutsu." also, "unfortunately his scrolls and such were destoyed in WW-II."

Hatsumi Sensei states in his book, 'Togakure Ryu' Ninpo' Taijutsu,' "Mr. Akimoto unfortunately passed away due to an illness. Takamatsu Sensei would tell me that he wanted me to become the new master of Gikan Ryu', because Takamatsu was too old." And as has been acknowledged by Mr. Tanemura that Takamatsu Sensei wrote in the Gikan Ryu' Sokeship on Hatsumi Sensei's Koto' Ryu' scroll. This would make sense since Akimoto's scrolls were destroyed and Mr. Sato had already received his scrolls for Gikan Ryu'. Also, the lineage Mr. Richardson put out shows Akimoto Fumio between Takamatsu Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei.

The question is, if Mr. Sato had already received the scrolls from Takamatsu Sensei but they were Akimoto's line, were they written by Takamatsu Sensei also or were they written earlier.

Was this letter authentic? If so, why has it changed in the past few years.

I remember you, John acknowledging the differences in Lineage, when did this change and why?

???

[John Lindsey]

The Gikan ryu scroll that Sato received was written by Takamatsu. As is the custom, it was a newly written scroll, but I do not know what it was based on. Only two scrolls were ever written, one going to Sato and the other to Akimoto.

The lineage shown by Tanemura Sensei is the exact one written in the scroll. I think that Hatsumi's lineage was created by him in retrospect after Takamatsu died, and he choose to add Akimoto's name for some reason?

This Gikan ryu subject is a bit touchy between our two kans. We don't recognise that Hatsumi S. is a soke of it.


BTW, there was another fellow who once claimed Gikan ryu, but it turned out his claim was a note written by Ueno and not valid at all. This person has since stopped claiming this ryuha...

[JamesGarcia]

Ahhh.. you posted while I was writing that one. Here is something else I asked you about John, severel years ago and I havn't heard anything about it.

In all the biographies I have seen on Mr. Tanemura he states he had met Mr. Sato many years previous to knowing he was a student of Takamatsu Sensei but curiously not anywhere can I find an answer as to how long they trained together before he received the So'ke 's for Takagi Yoshin Ryu' and Gikan Ryu'. Not that this really matters if passing teachings to an already experienced student, but the time frame may be extremely short, and as I stated earlier, You even said it was peculiar.

I have seen on websites and this letter too, that Mr. Sato passed on Gikan Ryu' and Hontai Yo'shin Takagi Ryu' in November of 89', yet there is no mention in any references to his teacher as late as 1989. In the first edition of Mr. Tanemura's Fundamental Taijutsu which was first published in 86'? I think, it does not show Mr. Sato as even a student of Takamatsu sensei, this would infer they had not me yet... But, In the first edition of 'Ninpo' Secrets' published in mid 89', there is still no mention of Mr Sato as either a student of Takamatsu Sensei or as a teacher of Mr. Tanemura. In a matter of six months he received So'ke ships?

I also remember many Genbukan students saying that Mr. Sato had completely stopped training or teaching Japanese Arts as he was fully a student of his Chinese arts.

Just curious as to exactly how much training they did before passing the So'ke 's to Japanese arts Mr. Sato did not practice anymore?

[JamesGarcia]

I am quite touchy myself John so I will ask anyway... (someone even called me hot tempered, hehe).

You just posted, "The lineage shown by Tanemura Sensei is the exact one written in the scroll." and my point was that in this lineage, Akimoto is not in it...

You also posted about Gikan Ryu', "We don't recognise that Hatsumi S. is a soke of it." and yet Mr. Tanemura did acknowledge that Takamatsu Sensei wrote in Gikan RYu' on the Koto' Ryu' scroll... Is this not an acknowledgement of a tie, directly from Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei?

And my whole point is, this was not the stance Mr. Tanemura had in the early 90's... Why has it changed?

I am also curious as to Mr. Tanemura's claim to have trained three times with Takamatsu Sensei while both Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Manaka both refute that as a lie. It is also curious that when Mr. Tanemura broke from the Bujinkan to start the Genbukan, he claimed to be a direct student of Takamatsu Sensei, as is especially evident by the dedication in the first edition of Ninpo' Secrets that says, "I dedicate this book to my beloved teacher, Takamatsu Sensei."

Also, both lineages in the first editions of 'Fundamental Taijutsu' and 'Ninpo' Secrets' both show a direct line from Takamatsu Sensei to Mr Tanemura, yet they have curiously changed since meeting Mr. Sato. Very obviously in the lineage Mr. Tanemura provided for the Kukishinden Tenshin-Hyoho Website.

I am very anxious to get a copy of the new 'Ninpo' Secrets' book to look for any differences from the first version.

All in all, this just points to Mr. Tanemura changing positions over the years and I am just asking to determine if so or not.

[Moko]

I remember Huoston Hayes and George and John and the rest of the Genbukan Historical Revisionist Society denying its existance.


Which if there were such a Society is the exact thing you would expect them to say.

[poryu]

HI

the Gikan Ryu lineage in my book for Tanemura sensei's branch of Gikan Ryu came from tanemura sensei himself.

I wrote to him, told him what i was doing and asked him if he could provide me with the lineage to Gikan Ryu for his branch of the school. he wrote me a very nice letter and listed the soke from the founder through Takamatsu to himself. the letter did not mention Akimoto at all.

I still have the origial letter he sent me.

I knwo someone who asked Sato sensei about how many times Tanemura had met Takamatsu, he told my friend he thought it was twice, once as a kid when he was with his father and once with Hatsumi sensei and the other shihan. Any other visits - who knows

[John Lindsey]

As for training with Takamatsu, Tanemura Sensei has never told me anything other than that one day. Not two days, not 3 or whatever.

As for Gikan ryu, Tanemura Sensei presented his proof before a Japanese court of law when asked, during a trial involving his brother, who was being helped by Hatsumi. The other side, who questioned his claim could not show proof and I think was fined by the judge for bringing up such a charge without having counter proof (if you question someone's claim to a ryuha, you need to have proof of your claim) and the matter was closed.

I was in Japan when Tanemura Sensei had to make copies of his Kukishin-ryu menkyo when he was challenged by another lawyer as to why he was claiming it. Once again, Tanemura Sensei proved his right to the ryuha. See the photo below...


The note written by Takamatsu on the scroll was shown to show a connection between Koto ryu and Gikan ryu, but does not imply complete transmission.

Why is it that Hatsumi used to claim only 8 ryuha?

The reason Akimoto's name is not listed, is because the previous soke (Takamatsu) was till alive. The line to Akimoto died with him. It was just a short branch off of the tree (Takamatsu). Does that make sense now? If Akimoto awarded the ryuha to Hatsumi, then he can claim the name in the lineage...

What position was changed in the 1990s Jamie?

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Moko
I remember Huoston Hayes and George and John and the rest of the Genbukan Historical Revisionist Society denying its existance.

What existance? Please expain more as to what I said.

[JamesGarcia]

Yeeesh...

A guy can't take off a couple of days for the holidays without a post turnin into a fricken novel... Family is in town so I'll get back to this one later...

Happy belated Turkey Day... Even to you Geebs and Jinks.

[JamesGarcia]

Okay...

I posted on the Genbukan Page about the quote. That being if the interview was conducted in 89' then something was amiss as Mr. Tanemura had not yet met or trained with two of the instructors listed. I am sure this is an oversite and can be explained as such.

In 89' this also means the videos he refers to in the quote would have to be the 'Hidden Ninpo' Gateway' series as these had just been finished and the Panther series and New Kokusai Jujutsu Videos had not been made yet.

This would also imply in the statement that Mr. Tanemura was referring to moving like Takamatsu Sensei from his one meeting when he went with Hatsumi Sensei and the other Shihan. Although, depending on when he began training with Mr. Sato also.

John stated that Mr Tanemura's Scroll is the one written by Takamatsu Sensei for Mr. Sato as this was the custom. Because of this statement, why did Mr. Sato not write out the scoll to pass onto Mr. Tanemura if this was the custom. I understand that Takamatsu Sensei's copy would be a treasure, but if it was the custom...

Things that have changed have been the geneological charts Mr. Tanemura has provided in his books and for others. The original in his first two books don't refer to MR. Sato as even being a student, yet in the latest version, namely the one provided for the Kukishinden Tenshin-Hyoho Website, he now includes Mr. Sato as a student of Takamatsu Sensei and as his teacher. But as I said before, he did not refer to him in mid 89' yet received So'ke 's in November 89'. Curiously, he lists other students of Takamatsu Sensei he had not met, yet no mention of Mr. Sato.

Also in the two charts he provided for in his first two books, he cites Takamatsu Sensei as his teacher, even so much as to refer to Takamatsu Sensei as "his teacher" in the dedication. Yet now as he has received So'ke 's from Mr. Sato, he no longer places that direct line to Takamatsu Sensei, also in the chart on the Kukishinden Tenshin-Hyoho Website.

As for Gikan Ryu' this is just conjecture on my part but here goes. As I mentioned in my first post, Mr. Tanemura seems to refer to two lines. If you re-read it, it says Takamatsu Sensei received one from Ishitani Sensei and Akimoto Sensei received one from his own family line. This is just conjecture, but if there are two lines, which one would be Akimoto Sensei's line?

Akimoto Sensei's scrolls were lost in the bombings of WWII and this could explain why Hatsumi Sensei did not receive any. The Gikan Ryu' note on Hatsumi Sensei's Koto' Ryu' scroll was still written by Takamatsu Sensei, and it seems that this carrys no weight to anyone on the opposition which is surprising. I understand that this is not the normal fashion of transmission, but Mr. Tanemura states on his website in his own biography, " At the age of fifteen, Tanemura sensei also was fortunate enough to be initiated into the famous Asayama Ichiden ryu taijutsu along with Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu, Gikan ryu koppojutsu as well as other ancient schools of bujutsu (Japanese martial arts). " and at this time, this was when he began training under Hatsumi Sensei and before he met Mr. Sato.

It is also worth mentioning that on the late Mr. Sato's Ju'-Jutsu Website that is now kept by his daughter, on the article on Gikan Ryu', he does not make the distinction as passing through Akimoto Sensei but straight from Takamatsu Sensei.

As to John's reference to a lawsuit against his brother that Hatsumi Sensei was aiding... Since they are cousins, Mr. Tanemura's brother would also be Sensei's cousin. And I was under the impression that that lawsuit was over some family heirlooms of Martial Art origin, not over the legitimacy of Mr. Tanemura's So'ke-ship.

And that is a good point about Hatsumi Sensei at one time claimed 8 Ryu'ha instead of nine. I will have to ask Hatsumi Sensei about that. But curiously, the Ryu'ha he did not include was not Gikan-Ryu' but Gyokushin Ryu' Ninpo'. I'll try to look into that one.

Interesting to note the hand print on the Makimono picture. Is that on all of the scrolls passed from Mr. Sato as I have never seen that. Is that common in other systems or particular Ryu'ha or could that be something of Mr. Sato's Chinese exposure.

I guess the changes in the 90's is the loss of the direct line to Takamatsu Sensei from the 80's when he left founded the Genbukan and the addition of Mr. Sato to the Geneology charts after receiving So'ke-ships.

[John Lindsey]

I posted on the Genbukan Page about the quote. That being if the interview was conducted in 89' then something was amiss as Mr. Tanemura had not yet met or trained with two of the instructors listed. I am sure this is an oversite and can be explained as such.

I think the explanation is that Michael Coleman "updated" the interview this year do to the confusion over that quote. He will have to give you the details. But, I do not think the original quote mentioned Sato and Kimura.


I think the Tanemura and Hatsumi families are related by marriage, not blood. They became very close when Hatsumi's father passed away while he was a teenager. The trial was over land issues mainly. The brother challenged his claim to Gikan ryu I think in an attempt to discredit him. Hatsumi was involved as a third party and I do not think he was even at the trial. According to Japanese law, as I understand it, only someone else who claims something like a ryuha or copyright, etc, can press charges. So, I think the brother used a official statement from Hatsumi S to get the court to even address this matter. But, the law also says something about the person pressing the charges must document their claim, before going after the other person. When this was brought to the attention of the judge, he requested such proof. It could not be provided and it was a mute issue, except that I think a fine was imposed.

The lineage lines represent lines of transmission. Akimoto's son is listed because he passed on his Father's scrolls to him. Takamatsu was shown as an indirect line. As for the use of the term "teacher" that is a very good question. Without saying too much on an open forum, lets just say that there might exist a document written by Takamatsu which may explain this claim.

I have talked to Tanemura Sensei about his "cousin" at length over the years. He has always been respectful in our talks about him, and I have sensed the family bond is still there. I hope the two will at least talk to each other again, before it is too late.