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Thread: Draeger & MSR/MJER Bashing

  1. #16
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    If I were at this table I'd just pour sake for y'all and listen. Fine thread.

    Earl I have a question. I started to send it as a private e but then reconsidered that it may have more worth for the lads to respond to. I have always treasured Suzuki's "Zen and Japnese Culture" yet you referred to it as a confusing book. Could you share with us what you hold in low esteem about that work?

  2. #17
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    One thing that has not been brought up in this thread is what everyone is doing on the ground in the first place. It is fascinating to me that Iaijutsu has such a prominent place in so many ryu, yet if we were to imagine that it is a simulation of being suddenly taken by surprise while sitting (a scenario often imagined by iaido practitioners), it is very unlikely.
    Among the problems with this scenario are the usual suspects: if inside, one will have placed the odachi on a rack and will be drawing the kodachi. If outside (the apocraphal battlefield, what possible situations would occur which would have enemies in seiza, tatehiza, whatever, at such close range that they suddenly are required to draw and cut - other than negotiations in a field? I'm sure that one can imagine scenarios, but it really doesn't explain why such an unlikely occurence has such prominence.
    So let me offer a few. From Otake: it's practice in stealth - infiltration in the dark, in tall grass, etc. One is suddenly required, while crawling (movements utterly congruent with KaShRyu iaigoshi) to suddenly draw and cut.
    Also from Otake: home invasion - grabbing the sword and fighting in a low ceiling room, in the dark, etc.
    From Araki Ryu, which uses "iidori" - on knees and balls of feet. One is in a melee and is knocked down, perhaps a long weapon is broken, or simply tackled - you continue the fight from the ground. This is borne out in Araki Ryu because the sequence of kata that follows bakken (iai) are two person sets called Rogusoku - kodachi against odachi, on knees, in grappling range, while drawing the weapons - sometimes the short and sometimes the long wins, depending on the kata.
    Honestly, I think these is the roots of "sitting iai" - The "problem" is that the Japanese, unlike the Chinese, who try to simulate reality in their forms by a theatrical replay, formalize things. Thus, instead of creating a kata where the man is knocked sprawling, on knees and one hand in a twisted posture, they start from a dignified upright stance. The problem is that when times change, and the kata are no longer prepraration for immediate reality, AND the oral teachings that explain that are lost, all that is left is the form. And Japanese lose the knowledge and imagine their own reality just as we non-Japanese do. Simply put, I think that when the sword was no longer used in the fashion I describe above, the forms remained and people passed them on and developed them in new ryu - and created explanations for the new forms - sometimes one's that fit the reality of the situations where THEY would be using the sword and others, fantasy. And iaido kata, I believe, often exemplify this fantasy approach. I am not being insulting here - it is simply that as the purpose of the use of the sword changed, and kata continued to be developed and also refined in successive generations, then an explanation was appended to the movements.
    AS for the explanation of seiza as used to develop the hips, - it certainly does. The next question would be- if one's goal happens to be the effective use of the sword in combat, what combative situations is the posture preparing you for. (BTW - I am not even going to get into the different ways to grip the tsuka or cut). I'm not the arbitrer - I've never done iaido, only watched it, but there is a line in which the movements become so different from the reality that it cross the line that is analogous to that between effective shadow boxing and waving one's arms in boxing like patterns.
    Lest we degenerate in that other favorite debate of the elitism of koryu practitioners, let me add that koryu iai also can be subject to the same process. It can easily and is often contaminated by other ryu, particularly iai and kendo which changes the movements in fundamental essence, and often the REASON one does the movements is lost or forgotten - in this case, there is no will imbuing the movements with integrity.
    And this is the fundamental question - is the movement done as the practitioner intends, for the purpose he intends and is it complete in itself. I recall an iai embu, four hours long, and I was bored to a constant yawn, and then this ninth dan comes out and does MJER, I think, and he had a wrist watch on and they wanted to be taking his photo, and in the middle of the form, !!!! an official from the iai federation sidled up on stage and approached him from the side and whispered that he should take off his watch - the old man was in the middle of an impeccable chiburi, his gaze "inward," and at the approach of the idiot, he stopped all movement (he didn't freeze, he just STOPPED) and glanced at the man, and everyone in the audience could see that that chiburi could alter instantly into somehting that cleaved the guy in two, and he stopped too (and this guy FROZE) and he backed three steps back and scuttled off the stage. The old man simply began moving again, with no hitch or hesitation. Iaido. Perfect swordwork.

    Ellis Amdur

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    Ummm....the discussion started on the ground as I recall?

    MJER has standing "waza", their called Okuden Tachiwaza - 10 from the "evolved" upright bipedal posture ;-)

    We're still working on the next step up the evolutionary chain - flying waza, unless some other art has already developed those?

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Re: DFD & MJER/MSR


    What surprised me the most here is that you seem so committed to your "way" which is based on your what, 25+ years of experience?
    ........................................

    I think you missed the point Mr Pokorny. Our experience is based on what we are taught by our teachers and their teachers. To this we add our own experience.

    Visiting as a guest as opposed to living in Japan and having a personal relationship with these teachers in their language is somewhat different. Very few people have had this particular experience and it should not be taken lightly. The whole Japanese experience is based on many things. Practice and study are one thing, but without a good command of the language our learning is limited.


    Re Iwata Sensei:

    Iwata Sensei, perhaps one of Japans most respected teachers of MJER does not have a high opinion of Tameshigiri and does not believe trying Iai out for combat situations. If I asked a question related to it he would think I had flipped. Since the war he has devoted his life to Iai as an art form that can be done in a non-combative situation.

    I do batto demonstrations at his Seminars. He does Iai demonstrations at Battodo Taikai but it's all Kenkyu. Nobody is thinking of mixing them.

    Likewise I wouldn't say to Hayashi Kunishiro "Why don't you wear you sword a bit more to the centre, you know like they do in Iai?. Or shall we sit down outside from now on?

    I think comparing them is bit like mixing target shooting with quick drawing although the objective is the same, the approach to it is totally different.

    I try to be impartial by saying "what if?" to politley infer that it doesn't work. But I get answers like "cuts to kote uchi?" That's what I teach at Kendo.

    "Novel situations" I don't think there is anything novel about a sword being drawn at speed cutting up beween your legs or down to slice your carotid by an opponent who has already ran to angle outside your narrow indoor stance.

    They are different! and thats it. Mr Steadman have you ever faced an exponent of the Jigen Ryu or Niten Ichiryu. Beleive me when I tell you it's a different ballgame.

    Respectfully yours Hyakutake Colin



  5. #20
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

    Default Re: Re: Re: DFD & MJER/MSR

    Originally posted by hyaku

    What surprised me the most here is that you seem so committed to your "way" which is based on your what, 25+ years of experience?
    ........................................

    I think you missed the point Mr Pokorny. Our experience is based on what we are taught by our teachers and their teachers. To this we add our own experience.
    Hyaku,

    I do not think I missed the point at all, but perhaps I should have stated this differently. I have nothing but "big time" respect for Mr. Skoss and all these fine sword practitioners. However, I was surprised that a person that obviously has done the amount of research Mr. Skoss has, would hold so close "one" particular style's "methods" and dismiss other "ways" as incorrect or ineffective.

    Surly it must be acknowledged that the various "styles" that have survived the true test, that of war, lends credit to the various styles efficiency. To dismiss or discredit a particular style simply because we do not practice (ie. fully understand) it's methods is IMHO rather narrow minded for a researcher of the sword arts.

    Personally, I do not view any style as better or worse or inferior. I just see them as different..........

    Still doing my homework......

  6. #21
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    Default "Original Intent" anyone?

    I was going to bring this up in my earlier post but, I figured we all already knew it. Unfortunately, most folks out there don't know it or have forgotten. So now you have to suffer through it... or just skip down to the next guys rant.

    MJER is descendant ryu from Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu. According to the legend of the ryu, he was a young lad when his father was killed. As a young man he vowed to avenge his fathers death by seeking out and "Murdering" his father's killer. Being a young lad, he was well aware of the difficulty in enacting revenge on a talented, experienced, combat savy veteran. It would sure be to his advantage to develop a stealthy method of killing his opponent without letting him know it was coming. Gee, how can a guy do that? Well, maybe if he can get his sword out of the scabbard faster than his "Unsuspecting rival" he might have a chance. So according to legend, Hayashizaki was inspired to create and develop techniques of drawing and cutting in a single movement. Read: Assassination!

    We don't know for sure,but if we examine the waza of the ryu, we find that there are 4 waza that deal with this directly, Nukiuchi, Makko, Itomagoi Ichi,ni,san. These waza, particularly the Itomagoi series are stressed in every phase of MJER. The basics of the waza are learned in Shoden as Nukiuchi. The waza is further developed in the chuden series as Makko (a little faster and more Kihaku). And finally the true strategy is revealed in the Okuden. Here the intent is obviously to slay an enemy as quickly as possible without his prior knowledge.

    If we examine the okuden suwari waza,we find that the swordsman is seated in a hiding position many times waiting for the enemy. When the enemy appears, the swordsman quickly draws his sword and rushes forward to cut him down. Can we say assassination?

    Let's look at the Okuden tachiwaza. As we approach or are escorted by the enemy we suddenly draw the sword and cut them down. Uh...I don't recall anyone saying that the enemy had started to draw first.

    In some of the scenarios it would appear that Hayashizaki or one of the later Soke, decided it might be a good idea to create a few waza that dealt with our plans for assassination being discovered. Putting the swordsman in a bit of a bind. In each scenario, the swordsman must gain the advantage by pushing the enemy away to gain time, hiding the draw, baiting the attack, or using environmental barricades to assist him in defeating the enemy.

    Gosh guys, does this sound like the Iai I've heard described here in other posts? Why can't the sword community see the original intent of the tradition and respect the teachings of it's founder? OK, so today assassination isn't exactly politically correct (depending of course on your politics). But what has developed over the last four and a half centuries is a method of quickly drawing the sword and cutting down the enemy in a variety of everyday situations.

    BTW, Omori Sensei ( credited with introducing the Ogasawara reiho into Battojutsu) was apparently not in favor with Hasegawa Eishin Sensei (7th generation soke) in his later years. Hayashi Rokudayu Sensei (9th generation Soke) re-introduced the standing waza as Omori Ryu (Seated waza), back into the Hasegawa Eishin Ryu after Eishin Sensei had passed on. Seiza waza (Omori Ryu) "was not" a part of this ryu prior to the 9th generation grandmaster.

    Someone also decided that in order to have a more well rounded sword style it might be a good idea to practice against an armed opponent. Gee whizz, do ya think? So...we have Tachiuchi no kurai, which deals with an armed opponent and various READ: KENJUTSU kata that deal with a READ: ARMED TEKI. That's right,we draw the sword and actually do KENJUTSU like those other guys. And yes, it's one third of our practice.Then we have the Tsumeai no Kurai that deal with close quarters combat with, yep you guessed it...an armed opponent. BTW..we even get into grappling here folks. Can you say sogo budo? Then there are the kodachi techniques. Sorry I can't comment on them because I have not been introduced to them yet. But I've been assured that they do exist and are taught. It would appear that not all of the MJER practitioners in the past were so stupid that they forgot about real combat situations and when and where they were allowed to wear the right sword! BTW, we wear a yoroidoshi not a wakizashi. And yes, we practice iai with them. NO BIG TSUBA to get in the way of our right hand.

    For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of Draeger. Kaminoda Sensei called him "The American Miyamoto Musashi." I'll take his word for it. He doesn't compliment that many folks.

    Gosh...this has been a long post. I have to go practice now. If I don't, Sensei will never teach me those kodachi techniques.

    Carl

    Trying to keep the old ryu alive

    [Edited by Carl Long on 10-11-2000 at 03:26 PM]

  7. #22
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

    Default MJER and Assasination!

    Long sensei,

    Great post! We have much to discuss!

    snip < "Read: Assasination!" >

    Darn, I knew there was something missing from my practice. Now, where are all those politicians when you really need them.........?

  8. #23
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    Default MJER as Sogo Bugei

    Just to round out the discussion a bit, I should point out that MJER originally had bojutsu, torinawa, and taijutsu/kogusoku/koshi-no-mawari type techniques as part of its curriculum. The paired sword kata (tachiuchi no kurai, tsumeai no kurai, etc.), which include grappling, leg sweeps, throws, and punches, in addition to a certain amount of kenjutsu-like cut-and-riposte sequences after the sword is drawn, actually outnumber the solo kata.

    It must also be pointed out, however, that this is not the normal curriculum for a lot of modern seitei-ized practitioners. Since it is an advanced part of the curriculum, it takes a while to get there, and a lot of people don't know about it. Masaoka S. learned all of these kata in his study with Oe S. and demonstrates all of them in his book. So far as I know, the bojutsu, torinawa, and taijutsu parts of the curriculum are lost.

    This is all a repeat of the same basic discussion we always seem to have:

    1) What is "real" and what is not?
    2) From what point in history do you start decrying the influence of "non-combative" ideas on the curriculum? After the end of the Sengoku Jidai or after Meiji (or after the introduction of firearms, or after the.....etc., etc.)
    3) Which system is "better"?
    4) Why are we actually doing any of this anyway?

    Personally, practicing any kind of bugei as an exercise in aesthetics does not interest me too much. I am not a violent person by nature (at least I hope not), and I can appreciate beauty as much as the next guy (I hope) but I think that being impressed with the performance of kata AS AN EXERCISE IN AESTHETICS is missing the point.

    This is an especially sensitive point with me because of my practice of kyudo. Most people who don't know anything about kyudo seem to think that it is a kind of "tea ceremony" archery, where aesthetic refinement is the goal. It is OK for a neophyte to be impressed with that aspect of kyudo, or any bugei, which does, of course, exist. However, the real aesthetic beauty of the bugei, as opposed to the surface prettiness, is completely a result of the performance being true to the real nature of the art. That is, the real beauty comes from the inner nature of the art, it does NOT mean that the art is beautiful because it conforms to some arbitrary idea of manners, elegance, or refinement. Form is NOT content. Content determines form. Or, to stand Marshall McLuhan on his head, the medium is NOT the message. The medium is only that, the medium. The real message is elsewhere.

    That is the reason why Mr. Amdur's story of the iai man is so apropos. THAT is real iai.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  9. #24
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    Default Suzuki

    Gil:

    I didn't mean that Suzuki's book was confusing in the sense that I couldn't understand what he was saying. What I meant was that it misled (and probably continues to mislead) a lot of people about what the bugei actually are.

    To the best of my knowledge, Suzuki never practiced any martial arts at all. Nor, as far as I know, was he a serious practitioner of Zen. He was a professor of religion who used European models to try to explain Japanese religious ideas to Western audiences. If Professor Bodiford is lurking on this thread, he can throw more light on this subject. Also, if Joe Svinth is lurking, I am sure that he can direct all of us to any number of resources about Suzuki.

    Suzuki's case, as I understand it, is that the inner nature of the bugei and Zen are at bottom the same. I am not a Zen man, so I can't say if this is true or not, but since Zen seems to be such a nebulous concept, it is probably quite easy to make the case for a certain similarity. If, as most people seem to say, Zen means nothing more or less than understanding the "as-it-isness" of things (their true nature) and living "in the moment" without worries about the past or future, one can easily see how a state of mind like this is vital to facing the life-and-death struggle inherent in the bugei, at least in their original conception. If this is the wrong idea of Zen, please feel free to disabuse me of my mistaken notion.

    However, I believe that attaining this state of mind, or something like it, is part and parcel of the bugei themselves and has nothing necessarily to do with Zen in any religious sense. That is, I doubt very seriously that Zen priests were the first people to realize this and that they then passed their ideas on to the warriors who then said "Aha! Let's reconfigure our martial arts so that they can be used as ways to spiritual enlightenment!" The language of Zen may have given people a vocabulary and a framework to express these ideas, but the ideas were always there, for the very simple reason that you cannot be successful in the bugei without attaining a frame of mind that people, not versed in the bugei, might mistake for the "Zen" frame of mind, whatever that is.

    This idea, that Zen and the bugei are essentially the same thing and that the bugei are nothing more than Ways to Zen enlightenement, seems to be primarily the result of books like Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture" and Herrigel's "Zen in the Art of Archery", which was itself heavily influenced by Suzuki's ideas.

    This has lead to the deplorable situation where people look at the bugei essentially as tools or means to attain some "higher" goal (Zen-type enlightenment). That is, they use them for selfish purposes which have nothing to do with the bugei themselves. It shows great disrespect to the bugei, in my opinion, to use them just as a means to an end which is seen as being outside of, and on a higher plane than, the bugei themselves. The bugei are not stepladders that you use to reach something on a higher shelf, nor are they just metaphors for life or real experience. They ARE life and real experience. Any "enlightenment" to be gained through the practice of the bugei, if such a thing there is, can only come from practicing the bugei for themselves, where the practitoner molds himself to the demands of the bugei, not the other way around.

    Also, Suzuki's book is full of subtle and not-so-subtle examples of Japanese cultural chauvinism, anti-Westernism, and hoity-toity self-congratualtory "aren't we Japanese evolved" type of nonsense. After practicing various kinds of budo for almost 30 years now, living in Japan for 11 of those years, and meeting a lot of people who really knew what they were doing, and who didn't talk down to me, but just wanted me to understand, I got sick and tired of being patronized by armchair enthusiasts with a cultural agenda. Suzuki may very well have been quite knowledgeable about religion, but he had no personal, first-hand, or deep knowledge of the bugei so far as I know. I should listen to him just because he is a Japanese professor with a reputation? I am SOOO over the "he's Japanese, he must know more about it than I do" stuff. Anybody who presumes to lecture me about something that I know first hand had better be better at it than I am.

    Brickbats, rotten eggs, and cream pies welcome.

    That Cantankerous Old Curmudgeon,
    Earl

    [Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-12-2000 at 01:33 PM]
    Earl Hartman

  10. #25
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    Default Interview: Seiza and Katana.. NEVER!!!

    Once upon a time...

    Interviewer: Mr Shinto Muso Ryu Guy...Why do you sit in the seiza posture with a jo positioned at your right side?

    Mr SMR Guy: Well we call this kata Neya no Uchi.

    Interviewer: Oh you call this Neya no Uchi. I didn't think you would be sitting in a posture like that outside.

    Mr. SMR Guy: Well whatever do you mean?

    Interviewer: Especially since the guy coming at you has a KATANA in his hand! And everyone KNOWS that you don't use a Katana Inside and that you don't sit in seiza outside. Wazzup with that?

    MR. SMR Guy: Duuuhhh...

    Interviewer: Ok I can see where maybe that was an unfair question. Suppose you explain to our audience why you sit in a seiza like position with a katana as the Uchitachi when you do Tsukidashi.

    MR. SMR Guy: Duuuhhh...

    Interviewer: I'm sorry, I missed your reply. Another question? Perhaps this question will be more clear.Why does a SMR guy sit in a seiza inspired position with a katana while playing the part of uchitachi in Uchitsuke and Kotedome. I thought you told me that seiza was not a posture that a swordsman would sit in with a katana. And you have an entire series of HIGH LEVEL kata that deal with that scenario...wazzup with that?

    Mr.SMR Guy:

    *We're still waiting for his response*

    Moral of the story: If you live in a glass house...awww you know the rest...this is stupid isn't it.

    Carl Long
    Also a serious SMR guy...

    [Edited by Carl Long on 10-11-2000 at 01:56 PM]

  11. #26
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    Mr. Long -

    Upon reading your comments on SMR (another ryu I don't do), I contacted a menkyo kaiden of the school. Oddly enough, his reply was not "Duh." He stated that those kata are, in fact, simulations of the situation when in one's home or another room, at night perhaps, facing a surprise attack and grabbing one's jo to fight. "Seiza,(and in his branch, one is on the balls of the feet and toes, not the instep as in real seiza) is, and I quote, "just a purely arbitary way to formalize being on the ground." Which illustrates the points in my post above.
    By the way, SMR exemplifies a ryu contaminated by modern budo in which some teachers use, for example, kendo or iaido footwork and then make up explanations for which they calaim antiquity for their "innovations."

    Best

    Ellis Amdur

  12. #27
    MarkF Guest

    Smile Excuse me

    Please excuse me. I do not normally post in this forum but I do follow it, especially when a thread such as this breaks out into a "compilation" of experience behind it.

    Originally posted by Earl Hartman:

    MJER as Sogo Bugei
    Just to round out the discussion a bit, I should point out that MJER originally had bojutsu, torinawa, and taijutsu/kogusoku/koshi-no-mawari type techniques as part of its curriculum. The paired sword kata (tachiuchi no kurai, tsumeai no kurai, etc.), which include grappling, leg sweeps, throws, and punches, in addition to a certain amount of kenjutsu-like cut-and-riposte sequences after the sword is drawn, actually outnumber the solo kata.




    Ellis' post made a very good point, as well as a fun read, but Earl's post was the one which had the "finality," if you will, of doing as he said it would do, I believe "Rounding out" the discussion. But I really was hoping that a discussion of bojutsu and taijutsu would have been discussed, at the very least, because, with my limited knowledge, I knew that MJER and others, must have contained the jutsu of bo and particularly, taijutsu. Is there really any art, no matter the age, which does not have this history (BTW: That wasn't a rhetorical question)? What part did taijutsu, etc., play in any art of iai and/or ken?

    I may be a judoist, but I also have seen remnants of unsheathing, defensively, to various cuts made, obviously taking defense one step further, to cutting, all which are contained, even today, by the judo syllabus. I don't mind if you wish to connect this to iaiDO, KenDO, etc., as Kano Jigoro made no effort in differentiating these kata to one way or the other, as the sword techniques done in the past were certainly not a sport in any way, as all cutting was discussed as any, or most sword technique was done with the aim of dismemberment, or whatever the appropriate cuts were intended to due. Most of the arguments centering on the weapons ban in the 1860s (or 1868, in particular) were just that: it was gainst the "anti-samurai" law(s) (I cannot remember what it was called at the moment, but I do have it in fairly easy reach so I will lool after this post is finished).

    Another question would be (and this is stricly a "what if" quesion), how would the lack of these laws have played out in the devlopment of any koryu or any other type school? Do you think judo, kendo, iaido, and this for Earl, Kyudo may not have evolved to what they are now, or would time, since it moves ahead with no quarter given, have left what there is now, and left it in Japan?

    Thanks in advance for any answer. Admittedly, this is out of curiousity, but the cat does not always die at the end.

    Mark



    Is there anyone who has insight to this impertinent question? I once asked Obata-sensei (shinkendo) about this but apparently dismissed the idea of defense of the sword as "impossible."

    Any comment?

    Mark




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    Sorry, Earl, you have me here because my gag reflex invariably kicks in whenever I pick up Suzuki. Indeed, his only serious competitors for writing nonsense would be Allen Watts and Warren G. Harding's speechwriters. J.C. Cleary is who I read on those rare occasions I need a Zen fix. (Remember: the sound of one hand clapping is Jon Bluming's shotei against your head. And if I'm in the sack with your wife and you're not there to see it, was I ever there? By koan logic, no. Whew, I guess that means we can still be friends.)

    But if you insist, you can read about the Swedenborgian influences on Suzuki's thought at this site: http://www.martialartsca.com/interview.html (To appeal to Western audiences, it does help to couch things in Christian terms whenever possible. It's anachronistic, sure, but the gaijin will never notice.)

    For a Zennist's view -- (summarized, anyone who understands Zen would have a much smaller ego than Suzuki): http://www.martialartsca.com/interview.html

    For a typically muddy analysis, see http://www.kisho.co.jp/Books/book/chapter3.html

    Various post-modern artists and musicians liked Suzuki a lot. They probably enjoyed heavy usage of recreational drugs, too, if that's any recommendation. Meanwhile, his students used to have their own URL but I guess they grew too enlightened to pay the $8 a month. A still-useful site for all manner of such folks is http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsRS.htm


  14. #29
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    <<MR Amdur wrote:

    Upon reading your comments on SMR (another ryu I don't do), I contacted a menkyo kaiden of the school. Oddly enough, his reply was not "Duh.">>

    My point, Mr Amdur is that it has now been almost a full day since I've written that post and NO SMR practitioner has responded with an answer. In that time Over one hundred, ooops make that two hundred people have read the post. To me that would appear to be a big "DUH!" on the part of the SMR folks that read it. Not that the techniques aren't valid...it's just that you can't make a stupid statement about an art and then assume that because noone steps up to the plate that there isn't a good reason for doing something. Just like the blanket statements made about MJER/MSR and others. The fact that any given student or instructor doesn't have all the answers about his art does not mean that the art is deficient or the practitioner isn't capable. Heck, you had to go to a Menkyo Kaiden to get an answer. I wonder if Any of the folks that read my post had that answer.

    << He stated that those kata are, in fact, simulations of the situation when in one's home or another room, at night perhaps, facing a surprise attack and grabbing one's jo to fight.>>

    I too understand simulations. Most bujutsu kata are just that, simulations aren't they. But if you take them out of context, for the way you see them performed as strictly kata, you miss the point don't you? Like Oh say, Omori Ryu seiza waza in MJER Shoden.

    <<"Seiza,(and in his branch, one is on the balls of the feet and toes, not the instep as in real seiza) is, and I quote, "just a purely arbitary way to formalize being on the ground." Which illustrates the points in my post above.>>

    In the SMR that I practice we do it from a "Live" position also. But that's just a simulation right? We're really not supposed to be in that position if it were real combat. Right? Perhaps other arts have taken this same approach? What do you think? I've read your previous post and I can only assume that you agree.

    <By the way, SMR exemplifies a ryu contaminated by modern budo in which some teachers use, for example, kendo or iaido footwork and then make up explanations for which they calaim antiquity for their "innovations.">

    I'm just curious sir. Is that your opinion or that of the Menkyo Kaiden you spoke to. Is his branch of SMR one of those that has been contaminated by modern budo? Did he say that? I think it would take a real strong constitution to make that claim about your own ryu.( I admire that kind of honesty) Especially since the Kenjutsu instruction in the SMR is supposed to be Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. I can only quess that "IF" it was the Menkyo Kaiden that said it, he was probably referring to someone elses ryu/ha.(Gee, go figure)

    And if it wasn't he who said it then I hope you didn't imply that it was someone who does not study Shinto Muso Ryu at all. That kind of statement would then obviously carry no weight what so ever given the fact that they don't have a clue about what may or may not be simulated here. Don't you think? What do the other SMR folks out there think? Mr. Amdur, I thank you ever so much for helping me make my point.

    Best regards,
    Carl Long

    BTW, who was the menkyo kaiden? Any names you might want to drop?

    [Edited by Carl Long on 10-12-2000 at 10:23 AM]

  15. #30
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    I practice SMR (no rank, so technically I should keep my mouth shut) and have heard the explaination for seiza as given above from a menkyo kaiden (probably the same one), but I have also heard from some of his peers (but not menkyo kaiden) that this is a modern contamination and that the omote technique 'in the bedroom' has nothing to do with being in a bedroom.

    My two cents.
    Robert Deppe

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