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Thread: Draeger & MSR/MJER Bashing

  1. #31
    Gordon Smith Guest

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    Let us also not forget that "views" are not necessarily the same thing as "people". As I understand it, every time I load this page to check on the progression of the topic, and to see if I need to straghten up the room, the counter increases. On that basis, let's see now, I've checked each time a new thread is added, a few times of refresh, once I pulled a duplicate thread...

    ...Call it 5?

    -G-

  2. #32
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    Hi Again,

    Looks like I hit on a really emotive topic. Everyone has submitted some excellent replies.

    My original post was "What do all you Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu people think of Donn Draeger's anti-Hayashizaki Jinsuke Line Iaijutsu (and maybe pro-Katori Shinto Ryu)comments (which I don't agree with at all)in his various books? IE: Seiza & Tate-Hiza not combat effective, Wearing sword across body at 45-deg's & danger of Saya-ate, etc. etc.

    As I have previously mentioned there are appropriate and relavent reasons why MSJER Iai-jutsu does the techniques the way they do, and not withstanding the Shoden series of waza/kata, does have combat application (which should be the main principle.

    Some posts have replied with well D. Draeger was right MSR/MJER is wrong because they do it 'that way' and we do it more realistically and are more combat effective because we do it 'this way'!

    This is like saying, "The British army was wrong/stupid because they taught their soldiers to carry the SLR cradled in the arms with the barrel pointing towards the ground (and they used a 7.62mm calibre round ie: less ammo in the mag), this is not combat effective. The US army soldier on the other hand uses a more realistic and combat effective barrel up, rifle at the ready, carry position with the M-16 (which used a 5.56mm calibre round ie: more ammo to waste)!"

    Which method is correct? I propose both methods are correct and have been utilised to great effect in the Falklands and the Gulf (among other campaigns). If you want in-efficient, non-combat effective and stupid military ideas take a look at the Australian Military!

    Anyway I still say that D. Draeger's negative comments about MSR/MJER were not 100% accurate (Did he study/research any length of time with any MSJER Iai-jutsu dojo? I do't know!), his comments sounded a little one sided to me and maybe his negative comments should have been directed more towards the ZNKR Seitei Gata (which the I'd be in total agreement with D. Draeger).

    Thanks again all. All the best, take care.

    Regards,

    Paul Steadman
    Paul Steadman

  3. #33
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    Hello,

    I don't know about anyone else, but I for one am honestly curious to discuss this subject calmly and politely.

    I submit that if it is not going to happen (which it's not right now), and all we are going to do is take shots at each other, then we might as well just move on and call it a day.

    If everyone *is* willing to look into this further, and those that are experienced Iaidoka are willing to be patient with our line of questioning, I'd love to learn something from this.

    BTW, we wear a yoroidoshi not a wakizashi. And yes, we practice iai with them. NO BIG TSUBA to get in the way of our right hand.
    That is very interesting. Is wearing yoroidoshi (a armor-piercing dagger about 1/2 to 2/3rds the length of a tanto) with katana the tradition of MJER in general, or just within your org/group?

    Can I assume that you wear the yoroidoshi across your front (stomach) from your description?

    The wakizashi/shoto sure seems to have been the companion preference with katana over all judging from prints and literature. How do Iaido groups (if any) that practice wearing daisho in a katana/wakizashi configuration perform this 45 degree angle positioning?

    I can understand the desire to not leave the right wrist open for attack. In our style this kind of liability is considered through using careful distance, timing and taisabaki (if necessary) - or simply performing a different draw.

    In Shinkendo we tend to draw slightly to the outside of our target area (in this case directly to our front position) so that we may generate full extension, enkei tosen and power before entering the target. Nukitsuke is not the strongest of one handed cuts, so we use every advantage we can to counter this problem.

    Is this still possible (or considered) from the position of wearing the daito at a 45 degree angle across the body?

    One problem I see with discussing this whole subject is that one type of Iaidoka practices primarily for the spiritual/mental benefits, and as such is not overly concerned with discussing real application and history. The other type of Iaidoka *is* concerned with effectiveness and historical matters. Both have posted on this thread (and others) and it makes discussing the subject very difficult.

    Is Iaido a martial art still? If so, then it could be said that there must be a primary concern with the "martial-ness" of the practice somewhere. If we are going to discuss these kinds of things, then we must assume that those contributing are of a style that is still practicing Iaido as a martial art. Those that are not need not loose any sleep over what is discussed here technically, as it would not affect their objective to training.

    On a final point, as an observer it has been interesting to read over the last 5-10 years a plethora of explanations offered by Iaidoka for doing Iai from a seated position, some of which are surely valid points and may in fact be historically correct.

    I mention this because Mr. Power has written and posted translations of an article by Nakamura Taizaburo Sensei (an Iaidoka himself) in which Mr. Nakamura says that he took the rare opportunity once to ask a large room full of many highly ranked Iaido instructors why they performed Iaido from Seiza. The answers apparently ranged from "I don't know" to "that's how I was taught". At that time, nobody present was able to offer any of the common theories heard so commonly today.

    Can anyone offer any historical references in which one can read some of these common theories? They must have come from some place. This topic comes up quite a bit, and if some references can be discussed, perhaps this topic won't pop up as often! I'd honestly be interested in finding out more about this. Some Aikidoka say that performing Aikido from Seiza is good for developing hip power and balance. This is a benefit often repeated in Iaido circles as well.

    Interestingly, I understand Nakamura Sensei was actually scorned for performing a seated Iaido kata from a standing position one time when asked to demonstrate on a dirt floor.

    Mark-san, sorry you weren't able to pull a better answer out of Obata Sensei. It might interest you to know that we have sword retention techniques both from drawn and sheathed, as well as shoto control and/or counter attacks to seated positions.

    I sincerely hope my questions have not offended anyone.

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    I have heard a lot of people use the words "weapon retention" or "sword retention" recently; I even had someone e-mail me asking whether I taught kyujutsu and if we offered instruction in "weapon retention". I confess to having no idea what this is supposed to mean.

    I assume that it refers to something other than just keeping your hands on your weapon, that is, not dropping it or allowing it to fly out of your hand when you swing it. Can someone enlighten me?

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    Hi Earl-san,

    In our case it is a convenient term I borrowed to describe two basic types of scenarios (I can't speak for other styles):

    1) From a standing position, the sword is worn and sheathed and shidachi stands in shizentai. The aggressor lunges forward to prevent shidachi from drawing their sword by grabbing for

    a. Shidachi's right hand so they cannot draw.
    b. Shidachi's sword so they can prevent the draw or unsheath it themselves to use against you.
    c. Shidachi's sword so that they may leverage shidachi to the ground with the wearer's own sword (jujutsu).

    We have a series of body movement tactics and counter attacks that correspond to these situations.

    2) From a standing postition, after having performed an attack or cut. Uchidachi attempts to grab one or both wrists while unarmed in an attempt to disarm you (not likely, but we have reversals anyway). A series of taisabaki movements may be used to break the grip or counter the attempt. Shidachi can then strike the uchidachi down in way that either "saves them or doesn't save them".

    Hope that helps. I haven't heard other's use this term very much.

    Regards,


    [Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-12-2000 at 06:45 PM]
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Nathan:

    Okely dokely.

    Yours,
    Ned Flanders
    Earl Hartman

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    Mr. Long wrote:

    "I'm just curious sir. Is that your opinion or that of the Menkyo Kaiden you spoke to. Is his branch of SMR one of those
    that has been contaminated by modern budo? Did he say that? I think it would take a real strong constitution to make
    that claim about your own ryu.( I admire that kind of honesty) Especially since the Kenjutsu instruction in the SMR issupposed to be Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu. I can only quess that "IF" it was the Menkyo Kaiden that said it, he was probably
    referring to someone elses ryu/ha.(Gee, go figure)"

    In answer: Sorry if my syntax wasn't clear. It is MY opinion that Shinto Muso Ryu has had a tremendous amount of contamination from modern budo. Although Draeger said the same thing to me, as have several other SMR practitioners, I am taking responsibility for it here. It was remarkable to me to watch the "development" that was taking place, in the easily 100 demos I watched SMR, even though Shimizu Sensei was still alive. This is caused by the association with the kendo renmei, etc. How do I know. I used to watch Shimizu Sensei, and his back foot was flat on the floor. Many shihan today use iai/kendo footwork on the ball of the foot, a narrow stance, etc. They have changed the cutting with the sword to an arching cut that one often sees in iaido, but not in effective kenjutsu.

    There ARE SMR practitioners who have hewn to a koryu "line" - they target differently, they move differently. I'm am thinking specifically of the Kyushu folks (at least when I was in Japan in the 70's and 80's) and Nishioka Tsueo.

    So the remark about the kata on the knees - came from the menkyo kaiden - who hasn't chosen to participate in internet budo, so I'm not mentioning names, and the opinion regarding contamination is my own. (and to be absolutely clear, I do not mean every branch of SMR, but frankly, I do mean most that I saw in Japan).

    I think this contamination is endemic in many koryu schools . . what I mean by contamination, by the way, is any augmentation which deviates from the stated aims of the school. For example, if you claim to fight on any terrain, and you change the footwork in a way that only works indoors (not only kendo, but sliding footwork which will tie your toes in tussocks of grass) I can think of other "augmentation" which is for the purpose of accomplishing the aims of the school. (Example would be Kashima Shinto Ryu reviving it's iaijutsu forms, abandoned for a generation. The one thing that they didn't have was chiburi and they chose to consult with Katori Shinto Ryu, based on long historical association and used their Chiburi.

    Mr. Long wrote:
    Mr. Amdur, I thank you ever so much for helping me make my point.

    I'm not sure that we are making the same point. Mine is that a tremendous amount of ryu in Japan are the product of 400 years of peace, and in many ryu, among them iaido schools in particular, the meaning and I believe the form of the kata changed - and as it did, so did interpretations of the kata. It is a good assumption that this happened more with some schools than others, and is most likely among those that have had the longest alliance with modern kendo/iaido schools - naginata schools, now assoc. with the competitive shin naginata are facing the same situation. I, personally, see this as unfortunate. You may not.

    If I have a point re MJER, it is that the original school was most likely very different than what is practiced now. There was a man who practiced ARaki Ryu with me in Japan, who was pretty high ranking in MJER, and he joined, he said, because his school had lost the grappling curriculum and he didnt' feel his sword would be strong or "true" without understanding grappling with weapons. AFter he achieved some skill, he told me that he faced a real dilemma in considering how he had learned to use the sword in MJER to date, believing, he said that in losing the grappling component, his ryu had also changed the way one used and held the sword and the body.

    I believe, (you may not) that the reason for drawing a sword from a kneeling or iaigoshi position are, I believe, as I said previously, and if a school shifted to seiza or tatehiza, or a new school was created in which they deliberately used seiza or tatehiza, then they are congruent with the use of the sword only in so far as the sword had become an indoor practice instrument for all the myriad of purposes that Iaido claims. For anyone whose weapons work also includes grappling, seiza is a pretty lousy stance to start grappling as well.

    Ellis Amdur

  8. #38
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    Hello Mr Scott,

    Q. That is very interesting. Is wearing yoroidoshi (a armor-piercing dagger about 1/2 to 2/3rds the length of a tanto) with katana the tradition of MJER in general, or just within your org/group?

    Actually, I have not seen many other MJER groups practice while wearing a wakizashi or tanto. So I don't believe it's that popular of a practice. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it only means that I'm not worldly enough to offer you a definitive answer. The story of my life I'm afraid

    Q. Can I assume that you wear the yoroidoshi across your front (stomach) from your description?

    Yes, in MJER Iaijutsu that we practice that is how we wear it.


    Q. How do Iaido groups (if any) that practice wearing daisho in a katana/wakizashi configuration perform this 45 degree angle positioning?

    I' can't answer that question for others and I would love to hear from others as to their preferences too.

    I can tell you that when we perform several of our cuts, that we "open" the hip area by turning the rear knee outward. This is also something that is not reflected in the seitei styles that I've seen. According to Shimabukuro Sensei and Miura Sensei this is an older method of cutting that reflects more of an iaijutsu background. This method of cutting allows the cut to travel further through the target when cutting. The hips and sword can drop further during Kirioroshi and it makes for a very wide cut during nukitsuke. It's difficult to explain here I'm sorry. It is not taught this way during the Shoden teaching. It is not introduced until the Okuden level. This is because if it is taught too soon the student has a tendency to open the hip too soon and perform a poor hasugi. So in the beginning we teach the student to cut with the feet and knees turned forward facing the target.It's a progression in our training curriculum. This straight forward hip (to us shoden method) is as most MJER/MSR groups that I have seen.

    The curriculum we use is considered a stepped method of instruction leading the student through several phases of training. The fact that we perform a given technique from tatehiza does not mean that that is how the swordsman is expected to use it in battle. The fact that the technique may be taught in the Chuden level(that happens to be mainly tatehiza posture) does not mean that he shouldn't perform the same from standing, from seiza with a short sword, or any other position that may afford attack or counter. It is simply introduced at that level while the student is assimiliating other principles learned from moving in tatehiza. Each waza is a piece of the overall puzzle that eventually comes together to make a swordsman that responds to a situation instinctively. The techniques, understanding and mobility gained from the practice of the waza and kumitachi all come together as a group of tools the swordsman can draw from. Reading this, it all sounds way too obvious but then I'm not sure it's practiced this way by other groups. I'd sure like to know...

    To answer your question regarding grabbing the kote, we do have several waza that deal with just that situation. The problem as I see it is how you asked the question. Yes we have those techniques but NO they are not confined to being done from a standing position or a seated position. They are meant to be asssimilated and used from every position if confronted while assuming such. That is why I mentioned the progression of training above.

    Within the curriculum there are techniques of grabbing the enemys kote after we have initiated an attack. These techniques are explored in the kumitachi sets that we practice. There are also scenarios where as we grab the enemys kote he grabs ours. In such a case (just as one example), we actually release the sword and perform a kotegaeshi or leg sweep and follow up atemi to teki (could also be done with the yoroidoshi). Each of these kumitachi have henka waza at almost every cut, parry or taisabaki. Some of the henka waza from the shoden, chuden, and okuden iai sets are not revealed until the student is later exposed to them in the kumitachi sets. Yaegaki is an example of this. There are studies of controling the center point of the battle and responding with the proper techniques according to where the enemys pressure is focused. Each of these variations is correct depending upon what the enemy does. So you can see, the way we practice our MJER is very dynamic. The kihon (waza)are done in a prescribed manner, but the study of their use is very dynamic.

    In closing..

    I am sorry if any of my previous posts may have seemed confrontational. I had only hoped to illustrate that misconceptions and biases could be unjustly leveled toward every art and practice. I'm not one to do that myself (I don't think?). I hope one day to meet all the fine gentlemen here on this list and have a beer and a few laughs to boot. (How do I make one of those little emoticons that tip a brew and wink?) Looking forward to your responses...

    Best regards,

    Carl Long

  9. #39
    Warwick Guest

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    My point, Mr Amdur is that it has now been almost a full day since I've written that post and NO SMR practitioner has responded with an answer. In that time Over one hundred, ooops make that two hundred people have read the post. To me that would appear to be a big "DUH!" on the part of the SMR folks that read it.

    Mr Long;

    I am a SMR practitioner; I have been training for 14 years (ie not very long, but not a total beginner either), a few of those years in Japan. The reasons I didn't respond to your post were (1) Mr Amdur's answer seemed perfectly adequate and (2) your post seemed so purile that answering it seemed like a waste of time. I'm sure many other people felt the same way.

    Heck, you had to go to a Menkyo Kaiden to get an answer. I wonder if Any of the folks that read my post had that answer.

    I suspect that a large number of people could have answered those questions but couldn't be bothered. (See above.) In any case, if the answer Mr Amdur posted was not from a Menkyo Kaiden holder, you would have questioned the authority of the answer, wouldn't you? I suspect that Mr Amdur already knew the answer, but needed to get it confirmed by someone whose word would carry more weight in SMR related matters.

    Warwick Hooke

  10. #40
    Warwick Guest

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    Damn,

    how do you get quotes from other posts to be indented and bold? I hit the "quote" button at the bottom of the post, which I thought would work.

    Warwick Hooke

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    Greetings Mr. Hooke,

    I hope you have read my posts the way they were meant. I don't question the way SMR is done. I don't even question whether or not anyone has the answers. Sheesh..I'm not even the first person to post here and use the proverbial "Duuuhhh". Actually I had hoped to point out the rudeness of that comment by over exagerating it in my original off the cuff post. Perhaps you can go back through the thread and see what I mean.

    This is exactly why things are so misconstrued within the budo world. What's good for the goose in budo is never good for the gander is it? I really like most of the personalities I've come to recognize here on e-budo. I just didn't like the way some folks were seemingly talking down to others. But hey I've got broad shoulders so you can let the comments fly if you like. But I'll tell you that I won't take it personally.

    I also hope that you uderstand that my point was that anyone can ask a less than considerate question and then turn the response or lack of it into whatever he chooses. It doesn't make the conclusion the truth does it.

    I also think it's important to respect everyones opinion and treat them that way. I too often see some folks here able to express their opinion in any way they please with no repurcusions or flames at all because of their recognized last name. I personally think thats improper. I'm actually a really nice guy. You'd obviously be surprised. And I consider myself fortunate to be able to call many of the folks that post here good friends. They constantly urge us lurkers to add to the posts. Then when one of us does. BAM!! if it doesn't fit their idea of what is right they tend to get indignant. I understand and that is why most of the 1200 or so folks that read the threads don't reply. Your point is well taken believe me.

    Thanks for replying to my less than appreciated posts. I hope to read more of your opinions in the future. I don't think you'll be reading many of mine. But that's ok. Be well and enjoy the rest of the thread.

    Carl Long

  12. #42
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Nathan and Earl

    Earl you write

    I have heard a lot of people use the words "weapon retention" or "sword retention" recently; I even had someone e-mail me asking whether I taught kyujutsu and if we offered instruction in "weapon retention". I confess to having no idea what this is supposed to mean.
    I assume that it refers to something other than just keeping your hands on your weapon, that is, not dropping it or allowing it to fly out of your hand when you swing it. Can someone enlighten me?

    ****************************

    Although I was only taught the term "weapon retention" in regards to modern combatives, I was taught the *concept* in regards to classical weapons through several distinct "reasons" for doing certain things and carying the swords certain ways, that have everything to do with the concept. To me, weapon retention goes farthur then the act of holding on to it or preventing others from taking it by performing locks and counters to potential grabbers. (although all of the aformentioned are legitimate theories)
    Weapon retention as concept, applies to saya position, hip placement, maai, the angular use of a single handed cut as well as the postion of the hand during certain cuts or draws.
    Although I have not seen as many Iaidoka as ya'all, the little I have seen, and the five I have played with, had incredible difficulty holding on to their blades against a commited attack.
    So, in that regard, I think the totality of; the grip, in conjunction with the placement of the hips before and most importantly during the cut...and the angle of the blade (hasuji) in relation to the imaginary cut are of paramount importance. This is neccesary not only for effective cutting but in actual defence of holding on to the damn thing in the first place and retaining a servicable grip in the second place.
    In the years I have spent playing with these silly pointy things, I have witnessed Kata by different men. Some good. Others, So-So.
    I had a godan in some form of Iai (I Didn't know enough to ask which school at the time) run me through some of the most convoluted and simply "wierd" positions with off hand comments like:
    "This is when you are in an alley,with walls on both sides,
    This is when you are under an overhang,
    this is when you are attacked with a wall on your left and the opponent on your right,
    this is when a guy is seated on your left and another is coming at you".......
    Some how this all culminated in him showing me some wierd "sword laying across your shoulder thingy," I was left with the impression that alot of this must have been simply "made up" by this guy.
    (But years later I have met others who were doing and explaining all the same things including the sword "across your shoulder thingy" I have seen a friend do just recently)

    Anyway....
    then we tried it.
    With him showing me first..........
    "Place your hips here"
    "Open up during the cut to a postion "here"
    Angle your wrist to a certain fixed position "there"
    Finish the cut "here"
    It all felt like the perfectly *WRONG* thing to do for effective cutting and transitional movement for me. Bad hip placement, poor extension, lousy hasuji. I couldn't make it work. I wanted to "Fix" everything.

    Then we had him "show me how it was done"
    with him performing the techniques against "me" the attacker
    Bam , bam, bam,
    his bokuto on the floor.


    So, Ok, Why the anectodatal? It's all many of us have. We are not going to get in a sword fight anyday soon. Everyone goes around quoting this sensei here, that menkyo there. How many have gotten dirty going at it? Not accepting the statis quo, and challenging the techniques rationale?(technique not people) I think its great to stay in and have fun and listen to all the stories. At what point do you start to prove it out?
    2 years in?
    ten?
    twenty?
    When?
    If you are interested in the pragmatic, sooner or later you are going to have to start experimenting.

    Anyway back to weapon retention
    To that end, I think the transitional movements; hip turn, sword use as a deflection (even before the full draw out of the scabbard), maai, close in vertical saya and body turning leading to the draw, again, the hip placement during the cut, and the cut angles all play a significant role in weapon retention.

    *************************

    Wearing of the Daisho
    Wearing the saya verticaly may inhibit noto somewhat BUT!
    That is of no importance anyway. The draw should be of primary importance. In fact, all the fooforall over noto and the koiguchi and the technique designed specifically around it can be said to be somewhat superflous. Other than protecting your fingers, which is very easy to do when done slowly, its use is perfunctory. The opponent is theoretically dead and you desperately need to clean your blade. Blood etches horribly.
    The ideas of drawing closer to the body also afford the body to turn the hips in a tighter "closed" spiral. This in turn enables very subtle deflections and angular safety zones while concurrently enabling the hips to generate a massive amount of power in the cut. It is not limited however to a Kiri-oroshi draw and cut though. The turning of the hips creates a body posture that enables a very simple draw for a rising cut horizontal cut etc......

    anyway

    Two friends of mine who train in Iai sort of made fun of me for showing the sword worn "up" and close to the body with a tanto across. It was obviously an unsual "visual" for them. I tried to explain that the two can be worn this way and you can draw in several positions. Also, how this "works" in the sense that you can draw while wearing Daisho, without conflict. In the midst of their good humour and smurking I had them try to draw with a tanto placed in the Obi. They had much difficulty.
    This is always nice, since half the time I swear they look at me like I am off the deep end. They keep telling me that much of what I show them simply isn't done. Or, at the very least is opposite from what they do. I get the joy of being constantly remineded of my ignorance of their Iai arts.

    Granted I am limited in my own experiences with the Iai people I have met and played with, and yes I know that! But, The more I read of others in the classical arts, The more I see comparative (though not completely, identical) views.
    In the long run who cares anyway. Its certainly not worth getting all revved up over. No one is going to care what others outside their art, think of their art anyway.
    But! If you are going to play with pointy things........
    Getting edgy and experimenting can be fun.
    I am sure that others in the Iai community are making their use of the blade effective through shugyo, trail, and the challenging of technique through experimentation.


    Dan

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-13-2000 at 09:40 AM]

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    I'm still new to this MJER art, having only practiced 7 years. And to be quite honest, never really bothered trying wearing daishio - being more concerned with doing the basics of nukitsuke - one of the most difficult things I have tried to become proficient at.

    This thread really made me curious as to how difficult the angle "thang" is. From the posts I was prepared for the worst - fumbling hands and dropped swords.

    Purely by coincidence (or was it?) I had just picked up a very cheap wood wakizashi and plastic tsuba for when we practice MSR kenjutsu in our dojo (not enough for my thirst - but time is always a premium these days).

    The other night I tried practicing with daisho for the first time, katana worn as usual at the 45 degree angle and the wood wak (with butt ugly plastic tsuba attached) tucked closer - more across the belly.

    And gee whiz, all that training made perfect sense. Aside from the 'newness' factor, I was doing nukitsuke and noto and all the other stuff inbetween just as usual in about 10 minutes.

    Hmmm....maybe those old guys who made up MJER kinda knew what they were doing ;-)

    Erik Tracy
    MJER
    Jikishin-Kai, USA

  14. #44
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    Dan:

    Re weapon retention, my guess is that people who do only iai, and have never crosed swords with another person, either in a kendo match or in paired kata, are not going to have any idea how to hold onto their swords. That is only reasonable. Since most iai is practiced as a solo exercise, no one will have the necessary experience. You have to mix it up to get a feel for what it is like when somebody really wants to make you lose your weapon.

    Anecdote #1: when I was in Japan training with the cops, there was this guy named Gomibuchi who was built like a linebacker and had forearms like Popeye. He had the wickedest makiotoshi I have ever come across and if he wanted to knock the sword out of my hand, there was nothing I could do about it.

    Obvious moral: if the Force is not available, rely on speed, timing, technique and power. If you're big and strong and have been training all of your life with really good teachers, you can probably beat up a lot of guys.

    Anecdote #2 when I came back to the States, I found that I could easily knock people's shinais out of their hands in kendo practice. I even did it to my teacher a few times (and got my ass kicked for my trouble, of course). Why? Because no one expected it, since kendo in the US is a little more "polite" than it is in Japan. But it only works at the right time. It is simply a matter of expectation. In Japan, a good kendo man will never relax, even in practice. In the US, some of the people I fenced with had a habit of dropping their guards when they broke from the tsubazeriai position (where the fencers are toe-to-toe with their shinais pressing against each other). In a match, its hard to get a point that close, so lazy people will kind of relax and back off to get a better position. This is really bad form, since this position is one of the most dangerous, and a good kendo man can nail you off the break faster than you can blink. Anyway, if they do that, a quick swat over the top of their blades will usually send it crashing to the floor.

    Obvious moral: a technique will only work if the timing is right. Like Yamamoto Kansuke said: "If your enemy is negligent, strike him". No shit, Sherlock.

    Anyway, this is always the dilemma of kata vs. sparring. Personally, if the kata are done correctly, that is, with real intent (instead of concentrating on the aesthetics) these lessons can be learned, I think. However, it is difficult practicing alone.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    Ellis:

    I have a question and a couple of comments.

    Can you describe the "arching cut" that you say is used in iai but not in "effective kenjutsu"? Why is it ineffective and what is the proper way to cut? I realize that it will be difficult if not impossible to explain via e-mail, but I would like to get a sense of what you mean.

    Regarding the true naure of the original MJER, Masaoka S. states pretty bluntly in his book that the original iai of Hayashizaki was undoubtedly "primitive" (his words, FWIW). It must have been very different indeed, for the simple reason that at the time that Hayashizaki developed it, the sword was worn tachi style, slung on a belt with the edge down. Masaoka S. speculates that this original iai must have been based on a kiriage-type draw. Hyakutake san's comments regarding the extensive use of this sort of draw in the iai of the Kage Ryu might bear this out. Also, it is speculated by some that Nakayama Hakudo changed the noto in MSR to what he believed was the older method that was used in Hayashizaki's time with a tachi (this begs the question, of course, as to why he adapted that to a katana worn in the obi with the edge up).

    Your comments regarding the "contamination" of SMR jo by modern kendo ideas all concern the seitei jo under the ZNKR. I am sure that you are aware of this, but I just thought that I would specifically mention it for the benefit of others who might not be clear on the difference. Although I am very new to jo, we do not use the narrow-stance, balls-of-the-feet kendo footwork or the straight-on body position in our group.

    The larger point is that this kind of cross contamination/fertilization has been going on for centuries, and what is going on now with ZNKR seitei iai/jo/naginata is a modern continuation of that. However, it can at least be assumed that, up to a certain point in time, this cross-talk had no detrimental effect on the combative efficacy of the bugei for the simple reason that during the time these were real fighting arts, no one would adopt a change unless it had a combative rationale. That is not longer true, and it hasn't been for some time. Again, the question is: when did it stop being that way? There is probably no way to really know. However, the only way to get a sense of it is to try to practice a real classical tradition as opposed to a modern "bugei by committee" style.

    Earl


    Earl Hartman

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