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Thread: Draeger & MSR/MJER Bashing

  1. #61
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    Robert,

    In Oikaze one also pursues an enemy. But isn't it Sode Surigaeshi when you first "break through" bystanders?
    You are absolutely 100% correct -- and I am 200% wrong ["shoulda known better" = 2x wrong].

    Thank you for reminding me of sodesurigaeshi. -- Yes, strike from behind after pushing aside the throngs with your arm-sweep.

    Oikaze -- "Trailing Wind" pursues the unsuspecting enemy and cuts him down from behind. Like Earl quotes Iwata sensei (paraphrased for modernity) "'Stuff' happens!"

    Dan,

    Do not confuse "corrupted budo" with budo. I also have seen the photographs. Yes, jukendo works. And "kaishaku" works. What doesn't work is the premise that this is budo. Even my teacher -- who has some reputation -- states that the "kenjutsu of the China war was that of Satsujin-ken."

    What you talk about is exactly what happens when bigotry and nationalism are combined and fostered by the state. Witness the lynchings of blacks in the US (not only the South, mind you). See the photographs of the happy white men smiling and pointing to the murdered victim? See the happy white children, being molded by their fathers? Not just Nanjing.

    Although bujutsu/budo/bugei techniques were employed in Nanjing, they were *neither* budo nor bushido.

    I invite you to come down off your high horse.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  2. #62
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    Dan,

    I just read your last post. Seeing films such as the ones you describe are important so that we can ensure this never happens again. I make it a point that my shodan-level students go through a collection of photographs showing the misuse of the Japanese sword. Since I do not practice jukendo, I do not include those photos. My goal is not to "sicken" my students -- just show them what *can* happen if you loose your soul.

    I apologise for the "high horse" comment.

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  3. #63
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Guy
    Thanks for the apology. I really don’t think I am on ANY horse. I do not see myself as above or below others. The comments I made were and are apropos for the situation.

    To Mr. Weng.

    I wasn’t discussing YOUR Budo now. Was I?

    The study of Budo goes far deeper than any single man. Observationally, I see it as something being carried out in various movements and then culturally by a people, finally by all peoples. Any cultures "Budo" can be seen in the way they handle the individual, the local groupings, the family group including women and children, the aged, the infirm, and then the way it extends itself for individual standards, rights, and freedoms as applied to its own people. Finally, it reaches out to encompass how it conducts itself in the arts of war, including the conscription of its soldiers and its war ethic. I think you see a corralery in the way a people value the quality of life for their own citizens, and they way they conduct themselves as victors and vanquished.
    That said, I believe there were eras in the history of man that reflected certain characteristics of those eras, as well as cultural differences in the way we conduct ourselves in war. That is why I referred to British and Australian "Budo" as a culture ethos, as opposed to the Japanese "Budo" of that Time and place. I do not believe that many of the cultures involved in WWII if placed in the same circumstances would have conducted themselves the way the Germans and the Japanese did. I do not consider the arial invasions in Europe or Pearl harbor, internment camps, or even the Atom bomb drops as incidents of equal measure. And NO! I do not believe it should be any sort of damning comment of an entire people. However, I do believe certain cultural attitudes and national ethos lend themselves to various propensities in any given situation. It is not universal or all encompassing (and I think it would fail miserably in defining individual people of ANY culture). But, it explains many actions the world has witnessed in the past.
    Time and place being relative of course, countries as large groups of like minded people or at least people who give over their consent to be ruled, can be defined in how they conduct themselves in human rights, economic focus, industrial output, or military matters.


    Dan


    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-15-2000 at 07:54 PM]

  4. #64
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    I can't really understand this "My ryu is more combat than yours"-thing. I believe it was Meik who, at some time, put it "What you see is not what you get"...
    Still, why do people fall for this scenario-stuff regarding the kata?
    It - just - wont - ever - happen - that - way!!

    Iai is about learning how to draw and cut with the sword.
    No matter what ryu you prefer, no matter what scenario you play...when training inside, seiza or not, you just can't pretend that you're stumbling on wet rocks, or in the ricefields, or in deep snow or water. Forget all about the scenario-bull*. You still have to adapt to the conditions regarding how you move your body (sliding, on the balls of your feet... or whatever) and you cannot prepare for that in the dojo, alone on a polished floor with no enemy in sight.
    There *is* no "What if you are wearing two swords, what if you are wearing armour, what if your leg is cut off, what if he's carrying a machinegun, if this happens - you can't do that..." there is simply no way of predicting anything.

    In the end, all you can do is learning how to quickly and accurately draw the blade, and cut. That is Iai, nomatter the ryu or the scenario pretended. Learn how to use the tool but please, don't sit down in seiza on the battlefield.Don't pretend to walk in mud with heavy boots when you're not. Iai is iai, some prefer specific scenarios or specific ryu, but in the end it's still only a limited way of training how to draw and cut. And for what it's worth: you won't ever be testing your skills for real...


    Ulf Undmark

  5. #65
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Ulf writes

    Iai is iai, some prefer specific scenarios or specific ryu, but in the end it's still only a limited way of training how to draw and cut. And for what it's worth: you won't ever be testing your skills for real...

    Excellent commentary Ulf. From reading in these forumns and from years of talking in the Dojo I have concluded there are four sides to this issue.

    There are two sides of this issue who are unconcerned about altering their training. They are resolved as to the question of "Why they do what they do?"

    1. You have the kenjutsu/Koryu side.
    They have different methods that may even include the use of the land and foot work for unenevn terrain. They may even train outside. They also have an indepth study of how to accomplish a real draw while maintaining optimum maai in order to gain them proper hasuji wile leaving the opponent "open".......or not They may also have their own beleifs about paired kata, batto, etc. and what may or may not constitute a full study of weapons.

    2. Then you have the Iai side that does NOT practice for martial integrity at all.
    You cannot argue with a person who is using the sword as a vehicle for moving meditation and form. Its like watching those gymnast people who use the hoop, the ball, and the banner. It serves no practical use. It is beauty for beauty's sake alone. It is still quite difficult to do, has a rationale all its own, and when they are in "the zone" doing it, they are happy. They are completetly unconcerned about the martial rationale behind their altered technique.


    3. Iai pragmatists.
    The third side is the side that is the topic of much conversation. They are the ones who apparently believe these scenarios as taught them. They may also think their Iai training makes them capable with a blade. They are convinced of the martial integrity of their technique as taught them.

    4. The Iai side that desire to be pragmatic and do NOT beleive all the things taught them. They research and struggle perhaps on their own to arrive at effective technical skills while staying in their Ryuha.


    The last two groups seem to be the ones that much of the conversatons on these many forumns and lists revolve around. Perhaps it is as simple as;
    practical VS spiritual only.


    I have never seen or heard of it being resolved. The ones who wade into the pool always come out with the same trunks they went in with.


    Dan
    "Artists! Musicians! gees....Ya gotta love em

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    The 'scenarios' are not to be taken as gospel. Each kata (in any art) is meant to teach certain lessons. In the case of these 'scenarios'(at least in MSR/MJER), one part(but by no means the whole deal) of the lesson is learning to move body and sword through confined and or crowded spaces. Probably the most important part of kata study(at least in regards to aquired skills) is breaking free of the kata (after years of conforming to it). It is ridiculous to say that you could only execute a technique if the attack comes in exactly the prescribed manner. Yes, I'm sure that there are people who never learn to "break free" ( I feel like I'm a long way off ), but you could say the same of people practicing any martial art.
    Dan, your '4 sides' comments could also be applied to the practicing population of any MA(perhaps save some very small koryu), even Daito ryu.

    Just a couple more quick comments:
    1. No one(AFAIK) said Iai constituted a full study of weapons.

    2. No one (AFAIK) claimed that the techniques have not been altered.

    3. "I have never seen or heard of it being resolved" There is nothing to resolve. If you don't like it, don't do it. It's still a free country.

    4. With the exception of knowledgeable and objective comments from people like Meik Skoss and Ellis Amdur, Most of the negative criticism comes from people with no background in this art. Take it for what it's worth-"0".

    5. The real conflict is within those who feel that they need to continually tell us that our art is "noncombative", "ineffective", "full of affectation", etc, etc.

    If you want to be able to judge the art, go study it earnestly for a decade or so.

    Regards,
    Brian Dunham
    MSR SanShinKai

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    Here's another ingredient to throw into the "pot" for simmering ;-)

    Our organization, the Jiksihin-Kai, recently hosted a gasshuku, in honor of Miura Sensei who came from Japan to help us celebrate.

    Part of the gasshuku was enbu of many arts. My small part was a demonstration of MJER iaijutsu with Shimabukuro Sensei.

    He was demonstrating several waza in three presentations.
    1) Pure Waza - as taught and practiced in the dojo
    2) Bunkai - the application of the waza against "real" opponents (in this case human "fodder" - my claim to fame for the enbu ;-)
    3) Variation - a more liberal interpretation of the techniques in a more dynamic application.

    The waza I am familiar with - having practiced them over and over and over. The bunkai I have also seen and tried (we do this time to time so that we all understand and appreciate the *reasons* for the movements of body and sword.

    But the "variations" I had never seen before. I asked sensei where did these come from. His reply was that a real fight is not waza. Bunkai can approximate it, but it is not the same thing either.

    His variations took the core technique from the waza which were then applied in a very unstructured manner. Of course for the enbu they were pre-arranged - but it serves to illustrate that you CAN think and use iai outside of the waza "box". You HAVE to - you are delluding yourself if you practice and think that for encounter 1 you use response 1a and so on.

    Those that try to confine MJER "iai" to a box similarly fail to understand that as well.

  8. #68
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    " His variations took the core technique from the waza which were then applied in avery unstructured manner. Of course for the enbu they were prearranged-but it serves to illustrate that you CAN think and use Iai outside of the waza "box". You HAVE to- you are deluding yourself if you practice and think that for encounter 1 you use response 1a and so on."

    Erik,
    This is really the same as what I was alluding to, you just explained it much better. These statements, however, are really true of all kata or waza based arts. The kata or waza illustrate mechanics or principles, and you eventually learn to apply these as a situation may require.
    Regards,
    Brian Dunham
    MSR SanShinKai

  9. #69
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Brian

    Good points all around. It does seem that over the course of this thread, as well as many posts both here and in other places, Exponents of MJR as well as *other* arts keep going over the same issues. Both Iai and Kenjutsu. You and I have discussed this in the past, that aside, it appears that several people in your art and in other arts have the same issues. That is what I meant about the differences and observations being unresolved and my comment about leaving the pool with your same trunks.
    Several people of both sides feel that no resolution is required. They are resolved to continue their training with out comments from outsiders. You must agree that questions remain and continue to arise from exponents both within Iai and from without.

    You had alluded to my examples being applicable to all other arts. I agree. In fact there is much discussion about this on this very Bulletin Board, and in others.Covering both Koryu and Gendai arts. And I find that exponents of those arts are willing to discuss the questions of martial integrity, affectation, rote *stand up* Kata as a learning tool and the possibility of whether or not those arts were effective in principle (if not technique) and whether or not they can make a transition to modern applications.
    The discussions are as detailed and pointed as this one concerning Iai and no one seems to mind. In fact several people you have mentioned have all joined in. They are valid questions that concern (as you have pointed out) all arts of every description. To date the effective applicability of Kyudo, Aikido, Karate, Kobudo, Daito ryu all Koryu jujutsu, Kenjutsu and Kendo, have all been discussed, With much candor and humor.
    The fact that you are one of those who is indeed resolved, is admirable. Several others, including your seniors, are not, and have been willing to discuss it openly, with elan. Most of the arguments I have seen here are on point. To dismiss them as worthless or "o" as you put it. For the simple reason they are outside your art is a bit tempestuous. Most artist can watch other arts and come up with valid weakenesses and strengths. The notion of an exponent having to study an art for a decade before they may voice a valid opinion as to some of the techniques they witness is a bit overplayed. Having critisms about some of what they see, doesn't mean any of us throw the baby out with the bath water.
    You had noted that you see outside the Kata box. You would not everyone does. A quick perusal through these boards bears witness to that.


    Dan


    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-16-2000 at 03:55 PM]

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    By no means did I mean to imply that the opinions of the individuals I mentioned should be discounted. The comments of both people were very objective and academic. Both were made from many years of experience in various methods of Japanese swordsmanship, one of them including MJER. I hold both individuals in the highest regard.
    My point was that, contrary to your opinion, I strongly believe that you can not evaluate a whole system or art by observing one or even several relatively low level practitioners. This judgement could easily be based on the skill of someone that really hasn't learned that much. You may be able to percieve his weaknesses and openings(or even mine for that matter) but that is only an indication of where that person is in his training, not necessarily the system itself (to evaluate the art itself that way, you would have to assume that person is an expert and is performing the kata with absolute perfect form and timing--I consider myself to be a SLIGHTLY advanced beginner, so I would not want you to judge my art based on my performance alone).


    [Edited by Brian Dunham on 10-18-2000 at 07:16 PM]
    Regards,
    Brian Dunham
    MSR SanShinKai

  11. #71
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    Dan:

    Just out of curiosity, if budo is such a crock, has no value in shaping character, and (at least in your opinion, apparently) is just a set of techniques to make people more efficient murderers, what are you doing practicing it, since you seem to despise it so much? Is Daito Ryu so different than all of the other bugei?

    I know that you have apologized for "emoting" after a late night, so perhaps this question is moot. Still, your disgust seems so visceral that there must be something else at work here. If you question the basic human morality of an entire nation, as you seem to be doing in your previous posts, does this not call into question the value of anything that culture has produced, in general, and the value of the bugei in particular? (This is sort of like saying that Goethe, Schiller and Beethoven are rendered unclean because of what Hitler did, however.) Are you questioning the uses to which the bugei were put by militaristic fascists, or are you saying that the inner nature of the bugei themselves are to blame for what happened? I am not being an apologist for the Nanking Massacre, as horrible and unforgivable a single incident of gratuitous cruelty as can be imagined, so don't even go there. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

    FWIW, part of Draeger's entire thesis was that the "budo" that the government used to harness the nation to the war machine was itself a corruption of real budo, not just because it was twisted by the government for ends that were foreign to budo but also because farmers and peasants, who had no knowledge of classical bushi culture, were forced into training in something for which they had no preparation. There is a difference between bushi killing each other in a fight and armed men murdering civilians out of hand. And yes, of course, it goes without saying that the "apologies" offered up to now by the Japanese government are far too little, far too late.

    Looking forward to your rant against America and its genocide of the Native Americans and enslavement of the Africans, the British subjugation and colonization of India and the forced sale of opium to the Chinese, and the Australian genocide against and continuing oppression of the Aborigines, among other examples of the Western spirit.

    Earl


    [Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-16-2000 at 08:12 PM]
    Earl Hartman

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Erik Tracy
    [B]Here's another ingredient to throw into the "pot" for simmering ;-)

    He was demonstrating several waza in three presentations.
    1) Pure Waza - as taught and practiced in the dojo
    2) Bunkai - the application of the waza against "real" opponents (in this case human "fodder" - my claim to fame for the enbu ;-)
    3) Variation - a more liberal interpretation of the techniques in a more dynamic application.

    ........................
    Mr Tracy

    I understand your point as I have taken part in and translated at many of these Seminars.

    However I still find subtle differences. It may partly due to the stealth element that has been mentioned in MJER. Then again there is Jo, Kyo, Ha, in these techniques however fast they are performed. I still need a lot of convincing that Iai and Koryu are now different entities in the sword arts world. But both of them done in peaceful times.

    I think Mr Hartman make a very relevant point in saying that the majority of Japanese people are not aware of what happened in Nanjing etc. It has been purposely left out of history textbooks and there are some websites that actually offer an explanation to the fact that it did not happen.

    For the older Sensei they know what happened and are determined to show that Budo is a form of activity having educational values

    My wife saw a book on the subject for the first time earlier this year. Needless to say the book is not sold in Japan. Her immediate reaction was of course shock, and she said did we really do this? One woman at hospital in Nanjing had said, I wonder what the reaction of Japanese women of Japan would be if they knew what their menfolk were doing?

    A lot of Japanese still think they are somewhat better than other races. It was this attitude that stood out in the book as if to say, It doesnt matter, they are not Japanese!

    Young people are perhaps more aware. But the full force of the atrocities will never be brought home. Basicaly it means that anyone born after the war (54), or just before is oblivious to what went on.


    Hyakutake Colin

    [Edited by hyaku on 10-16-2000 at 09:51 PM]

  13. #73
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Earl writes

    Dan:

    Just out of curiosity, if budo is such a crock, has no value in shaping character, and (at least in your opinion, apparently) is just a set of techniques to make people more efficient murderers, what are you doing practicing it, since you seem to despise it so much?



    Without knowing me, I think it is bit difficult to package all of my feelings regarding Budo into one post.
    Despise them? Hardly.
    Love them? Hardly.
    They are what they are. They do not require our love, hate, or indifference. They are there, as part of the totality of man and his culture. To be human, and witness the Beauty of Budo, is to also be human and be moved by the atrocities of Budo. I disagree with the presumption that one can have martial ardor for what one may judge as honorable field actions, while spuriously discounting other actions as BAD Budo. In other words Budo, is Budo.
    There are better ways to improve the human condition then the study of war. Yes I know the popular refrain “Budo is about STOPPING the SPEARS or in this case WAR. However, to stop war one must understand the nature of war. The study of war and the nature of war, whether on an individual or corporate level is not a study that necessarily produces a finer character in man. Although I do not disclude the fact that military training does do this. As I said, there are better ways to achieve this.

    I do retract my statement that “Budo as a way to refine and build any sort of charactor is a farse.”
    Gees Did I say that? Emotions ran high.


    ***************************************

    Earl

    Is Daito Ryu so different than all of the other bugei?


    I do not presume to speak for Daito Ryu in any manner or form.

    *****************************************

    Earl
    I know that you have apologized for "emoting" after a late night, so perhaps this question is moot.
    Still, your disgust seems so visceral that there must be something else at work here. If you question the basic human morality of an entire nation, as you seem to be doing in your previous posts, does this not call into question the value of anything that culture has produced, in general, and the value of the bugei in particular?
    (This is sort of like saying that Goethe, Schiller and Beethoven are rendered unclean because of what Hitler did, however.) Are you questioning the uses to which the bugei were put by militaristic fascists, or are you saying that the inner nature of the bugei themselves are to blame for what happened? I am not being an apologist for the Nanking Massacre, as horrible and unforgivable a single incident of gratuitous cruelty as can be imagined, so don't even go there. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.


    Let’s establish some ground rules. Are you truly interested in how I feel about the subject? Or, are you inflamed by what you perceive my opinion to be and are only interested in squabbling? Will it be Ok if we find while trying to understand each other we disagree in whole or in part? Is it ok to do so without judging the entirety of ourselves as men?

    The documentary was one of the most visual I have seen. I was being overly (and humanly) sensitive to the video of dead citizens along with stories of laughing soldiers. Coupled with the stories of the tied up soldiers being run through and left to die slowly while strung up. It struck a chord in that I was just then reading the post about the MJR back stab and one of the responses. Anyway you get the connection. It is what it is. The actions were done, it bothered me.
    My commentary about the Budo of that culture (Japan) at that time was evidenced in the actions of that culture at that time. And no, I do not think the other two cultures I mentioned *of that time*, would have acted the same. You brought up a corollary to the Americas. If you would like to discuss the actions in the America’s from say, mid 15th century to mid 19th century, and the Budo that was expressed by the various cultures of that time, lets do so. Here, I was only discussing the Budo of that culture and time.
    You also brought up the notion of judging the actions of individuals in a culture in regards to that cultures Budo and the prospects of damning them for military actions of their governments. I specifically disregarded that in my posts, so on that we agree. To be more specific. Even the individuals involved in execution of some of the worlds most heinous military atrocities are in a way, victims themselves, of their cultures Budo. It does not excuse their actions or indifference. Personally, I believe I would have chosen to face a firing squad instead of lighting the pilot on a single gas oven in Auschwitz. But again they are what they are.People did what they did.

    *********************************
    earl writes
    FWIW, part of Draeger's entire thesis was that the "budo" that the government used to harness the nation to the war machine was itself a corruption of real budo, not just because it was twisted by the government for ends that were foreign to budo but also because farmers and peasants, who had no knowledge of classical bushi culture, were forced into training in something for which they had no preparation. There is a difference between bushi killing each other in a fight and armed men murdering civilians out of hand. And yes, of course, it goes without saying that the "apologies" offered up to now by the Japanese government are far too little, far too late.

    Oh great!! I get to speak out and disagree with Mr. Draegers opinions?
    Using a governments "Budo" to harness a people to the war machine isn't a corruption of Budo. IT IS BUDO! and its ugly. The study of how to do it is as important as the study of how to keep troops equipped and rotated. How to make an incursion have a supply, have a strategy and an exit plan.
    I think it’s a mistake and a bit to idealistic to think of some imaginary "Budo" Ideal somewhere that encompasses only the positive attributes of war or of any given cultures actions in war in a place and time. It would be great to aspire to some sort worldwide martial ethos and call THAT "Budo." But the likelyhood of THAT ever happening is slim. War is hell and people are mean when they get mad. I do not think you can have good Budo A. over here and everytime someone does a No,No, you say
    "Ah hah!! they twisted good Budo."
    People consent to being led. You can always choose to be free or die. Tacit consent, cowardly consent, or fervent zealousness for a cause, either way, they are all there fighting.
    The Budo of a culture at a given time is its “Budo” Period. It may be that it is neither good, nor bad, but both at once.
    Several religions would decry Budo all together. But, I believe Ghandi expressed excellent Budo. He won with little comparative bloodshed. Then again, the study of a peoples religious beliefs and their local customs is paramount to good Budo anyway. So is the study of their education system, and the general mindset of the attacking armies "Folks back home."

    *******************************************


    Looking forward to your rant against America and its genocide of the Native Americans and enslavement of the Africans, the British subjugation and colonization of India and the forced sale of opium to the Chinese, and the Australian genocide against and continuing oppression of the Aborigines, among other examples of the Western spirit.

    Earl

    gees... Earl. I already apologized

    All are examples of their cultures Budo in various forms. Several of your examples are not direct military actions. They are police actions, and economic uses of the military. All ugly and all part of their cultures Budo.
    Someone should have and probably *did* rant against such atrocities. Others sat back and were tacitly led. The actions do not require our approval or disapproval. They happened.
    I would hope someone was emotionally charged and outraged over them as well. In keeping with my opinion it is interesting to study what sort of culture produces such actions. Including the most common ethical considerations of first separating and then de-humizing the potential victims in the eyes of the citizenry.

    You sense a cynicism in me regarding many of these martial arts as Budo, due to my opinion that they are, as practiced by most of us……NOT Budo.
    War, and military action are a severe study. The taking of human life is a serious matter. On a personal level, to say that you (just a general you Earl, I don’t know individuals) are practicing a personal "Budo" that is capable, on different levels, of pre-empting or stopping an intense murderous action against you and yours is a serious matter. And not to be taken lightly.
    It is a simple as this (in my warped mind anyway)

    Person A. is living their life. Someone attacks them. They defend themselves, they win..whew! lucky them

    Person B. picks up a weapon and says to himself or others “I will learn this weapon.”
    They should then,learn its use. To IT’S fullest extent and become expert in its use.
    Or Leave it alone and be person A.
    Dabbling embarrasses the weapon and others who strive so hard. I feel the same with Unarmed arts as well. Leave them alone or become expert. Everything in the middle isn’t Budo to me. Moreover, Low level people who are giving they’re all, and are on the road to expertise ARE practicing Budo. They may have many seniors in their respective arts who have just hung around a long time who are NOT practicing Budo in any real sense. It is one of the reasons you can enter a Dojo and find so few who are really capable.
    Inversely Earl, I know of a few guys with some serious military backgrounds who actually use their Budo to Stop the violence in THEMSELVES. They have NO interest in getting edgy at all. A sort of “Been there. Done that. Mindset.” I don’t know why, But, I have always found that poetic.

    Dan



    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-16-2000 at 11:19 PM]

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    Is Budo spiritual?? Is it effective? Isn't it just another form of fascism? Is Budo good? Is it bad?

    I always thought Budo was what we made of it. For me it all comes up to learning it's lesson and see what good may come with it.

    I mentioned the "scenarios". What I meant was that we have to be openminded while training. Is it possible to draw MSR-style if wearing Daisho? We'll, who said any MSR swordsman was wearing Daisho? Yes, ofcourse...the Tokugawa fellow did.
    But here we have it again; nomatter what ryu we prefer, we cannot predict what kind of laws will be forced up on us. One day we're only allowed to wear one sword. The next day, we're forced to wear three of them. All of a sudden, like in 1877, we're not allowed to wear any at all!! So, the last time I checked, this Tokugawa guy wasn't ruling my country...nor was he ruling Japan when Hayashizake first formalized his methods. And when Tokugawa minded my ryuha's bussiness, I guess the Kage ryu fellows ended up even worse; they were training with swords they weren't allowed to wear at all. Far too long for Tokugawa taste.

    So, if we're now forced to wear'em, should this Tokugawa guy ever knock on your door; pick a short one without tsuba. If Tokugawa isn't satisfied, well, do we have any statistics on how many got arrested for wearing too short kodachi without tsuba? I don't know...But I DO know it AIN'T much big deal moving the sword a few inches to the left...IF we're forced by law to do so!

    I also know it aint the same to train in deep snow at night.
    It just can't be done the same way. Yes, the "scenario" IS important to understand, but we can't play'em all! Nor can we consult the good old densho for all of our questions...it has to be tried by those who wan't to know. I can draw fast and well from lying, sitting, standing, jumping, running. I can draw with my left hand while wearing the sword at my right hip... AND while wearing two swords. We just have to understand the limitations of Iai as a method for learning swordsmanship. I don't really feel like playing "Now I'm wearing three swords - Now I'm in water - Now, I cant see where you are...". Methods for learning how to handle the weapon, under LIMITED conditions, are taught in every ryu. They're enough for anyone...if only open minded.

    So, does this make MJER/MSR a really combative art?
    I've always been interested in knowing if my training has given me any feel for the weapon, but limiting the experience to that... would really make training these days meaningless.

    Ulf Undmark

    [Edited by Undmark, Ulf on 10-17-2000 at 03:16 AM]

  15. #75
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Brian Dunham

    My point was that, contrary to your opinion, I strongly believe that you can not evaluate a whole system or art by observing one or even several relatively low level practitioners. This judgement could easily be based on the skill of someone that really hasn't learned that much. The individual who, I'm pretty sure, is your primary exposure to MSR, is not the person you wan't to watch in order to get an accurate picture of the system. You may be able to percieve his weaknesses and openings(or even mine for that matter) but that is only an indication of where that person is in his training, not necessarily the system itself (to evaluate the art itself that way, you would have to assume that person is an expert and is performing the kata with absolute perfect form and timing--I consider myself to be a SLIGHTLY advanced beginner, so I would not want you to judge my art based on my performance alone).



    Hi, Brian,
    Do you know a single boxer of great technique or even a bad one write a book on boxing or even a good article? I haven't either. It would seem, in this piece of combative sport, most of the experts are those who have never, or may have done a little of the real thing. While this may or may not be budo to you, a fight is a fight, and the experts are writing about these duels the next day, the next week, or even ten, twenty, even thirty or more years later. You may want to stay tuned in, because the best advice comes from the strangest places, and even those who have never picked up a sword can see what you don't while self-involved in the thing. Keep your ears open. Oh, and your eyes, as well.

    Mark


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