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Thread: Faux Pas

  1. #31
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    Default Re: RE: faux pas

    Originally posted by hyohakushado
    ....as far as the kicking during the kenjutsu training, that is also a part of the samurai arts. that could have been part of several different styles practiced during the edo/ meiji periods...quite possibly korean tae kyun.
    Thank you for your post.

    I'd like to hear more about Korean influence on Jpn Bujutsu.
    Don J. Modesto
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  2. #32
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    Default RE: faux pas

    well, the way i've heard it (every style has a different story), but all martial arts originated in korea. all throughout japanese history, the japanese sent out raiders into china and korea to "import" people to perform various functions such as swordsmiths, clothes and shoe makers, scribes, slaves, warriors, teachers, etc..
    with all the mixing between the cultures, some of the martial arts styles started incorporating a lot of different things to round out the art and make it more effective in combat. but like i said, each style has its own version of how an art evolved.

    in korea, there were several different schools of tae kyun, which are now the ancestors of tae kwon do and several other korean arts.
    i dont think anyone really knows if the japanese were regularly teaching kicks with weapons training, or if they learned it from the koreans, but its a fact that the koreans had arts that heavily concentrated on kicks during combat, and they taught this to the japanese before and during the edo period.

    each warrior or warlord that had access to the knowledge and training of the korean's warrior arts definitely had an advantage on the battlefields when it came to hand to hand combat. each korean style might have had its own traditional teachings, but since it was relatively new in japan, the moves individually more or less merged in with the japanese traditions and katas for a particular style to make a "japanese" style.

    bujutsu, for example, is a collection of several different martial arts taught to be used on the battlefields. it includes: hand-hand, grappling, and weapons. the word itself (bujutsu="warrior art") is all-encompassing of any style or combination of styles taught for combat purposes, not sport.

    some styles of bujutsu are more classical and traditional, while others were only taught within a certain family or town. they all may have the same roots in combat, but as different a style and regimen of training as each family that taught it.


    from the movie though, since they didnt really differentiate exactly what stlye was what, it cant be determined what he was supposed to be doing.


    hope this helps some.
    Noel J. Benadom
    5th Dan, Budo Taijutsu
    Founder, Hyohakusha Do Bujutsu
    www.hyohakusha-do.com
    hyohakushado@yahoo.com

  3. #33
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    Default Re: faux pas

    hyohakushado,

    Thank you for your detailed answer. I don't know enough of the subject to comment further, but I should think that it will elicit further posts.

    Happy Holidays
    Don J. Modesto
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    http://theaikidodojo.com/

  4. #34
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    For photos of kicks done by jujutsuka K. Higashi ca. 1905, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm .

    As for Satsuma, remember that it had a budget equivalent to the Tokugawa's. How? Smuggling Chinese and European goods in through Ryukyus, and then not declaring the income. See Donald Keene, "The Japanese Discovery of Europe, 1720-1830" (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, revised edition, 1969). Thus, Nagasaki merchants and Satsuma samurai probably had a concept of coin equal to anyone's in Tokyo.

  5. #35
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    Mr. Benadom, would you be so kind as to tell me a single form of koryu kenjutsu that includes kicking in it's curriculum?

    all throughout japanese history, the japanese sent out raiders into china and korea to "import" people to perform various functions such as swordsmiths, clothes and shoe makers, scribes, slaves, warriors, teachers, etc..
    Do you have a reference for this?
    David F. Craik

  6. #36
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    Soulend
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    Whew!

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    Tip o' the Mint Julip to yo...ya'll.

    Happy Holidays!
    Don J. Modesto
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    Default RE: koryu/ kicking/ kenjutsu

    if you noticed throughout the whole movie, there were only 4 times that a pure style was preformed: 1: group iaido in the field, #2 jiu-jutsu by the side of the road in the village, and #3 kyudo/ kyujutsu, and the randori against 3 armed attackers.

    if you want to discount the scene where he was kicking while using the bokuto, then you also have to discount the scene where they were using empty hand against the katana(s) (randori) since that is not a part of kenjutsu either. the samurai arts, as stated above, are combinations of styles and moves effective in combat. and also, as stated before, nowhere in the movie did the characters say "now i will be practicing this style or that style. the closest koryu that incorporates kicking and kenjutsu is aiki-jutsu. you might also want to look into Yoroi Kumi Uchi, or Himitsu Kempo or even ninjutsu. all of those are koryu, and incorporate kicks and kenjutsu.
    one thing you have to remember is there are no rules when it comes to life or death combat.
    that means that all the formalities and "properness" of a style go right out the window. for example, while doing iai kata, there are so many breaths between a strike and chiburi, or so many steps to take back after a strike, etc.... noe of that means anything in the heat of battle. the purpose of realistic training (like in the movie) is to keep yourself alive longer in a battle.
    in fact, i think that the only job in the military, during a battle, that relies on the exact techniques used during training (breathing, motions, etc..), is that of a sniper.
    Noel J. Benadom
    5th Dan, Budo Taijutsu
    Founder, Hyohakusha Do Bujutsu
    www.hyohakusha-do.com
    hyohakushado@yahoo.com

  8. #38
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    When I did koryu kenjutsu, we did kumiuchujitsu.. which is armored grappling with a yori-doshi, an armor-piercing dagger. And we practice not straight out kicks but more or less stomps and shoves with the foot. And also realize as stated above, that during the heat of battle... I'm pretty sure that when two warriors came tsuba to tsuba, the occasional strike to the face with the left hand happened.. even though its not in any kenjutsu curicculum(sp?) that I know of...

    like Capt Jack Sparrow said... "Anything a man can do.... he will do"

    Best,

    Brian James
    "Learn something new everyday, becoming more skillful
    than yesterday, more skillful than today. This is never
    ending." - Hagakure

  9. #39
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    Default RE: japanese/ korean relations during samurai eras.

    as requested a few mesages up, here are several different references that detail the history between japan and korea.


    Choson: Korea-Japan Relations



    Aston, W.G. "Hideyoshi's Invasion of Korea." Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan 6 (1878): 227-245; 9 (1881): 87-93, 213-222; 11 (1883): 117-125.

    Aston, W.G. Hideyoshi's Invation [sic] of Korea. Tokyo: Ryubunkan, 1907.

    Atwell, William S. "A Seventeenth-Century 'General Crisis' in East Asia?" Modern Asian Studies 24:4 (1990): 661-682.

    Austin, Audrey. "Admiral Yi Sun-sin: National Hero." Korean Culture 9:2 (Summer 1988): 4-15.

    Ballard, George Alexander. "The Korean War of the Sixteenth Century." In The Influence of the Sea on the Political History of Japan. New York: E.P. Dutton & Co., 1921.

    Ballard, George Alexander. The Influence of the Sea on the Political History of Japan. New York: E.P. Dutton & Co., 1921.

    Bak, Hae-ill. "A Short Note on the Iron-clad Turtle Boats of Admiral Yi Sun-sin." Korea Journal 17:1 (January 1977): 34-39.

    Chung, Chai-sik. "Changing Korean Perceptions of Japan on the Eve of Modern Transformation: The Case of Neo-Confucian Yangban Intellectuals." Korean Studies 19 (1995): 39-50.

    Chung, Chai-sik. "Changing Korean Perceptions of Japan on the Eve of the Modern Transformation: The Case of Neo-Confucian Yangban Intellectuals." In Helen Hardacre, ed., with Adam L. Kern. New Directions in the Study of Meiji Japan. Leiden: Brill, 1997.

    Eikenberry, Karl W. "The Imjin War." Military Review 68:2 (February 1988): 74-82.

    Elison, George. "The Priest Keinen and His Account of the Campaign in Korea, 1597-1598: An Introduction." In Motoyama Yukihiko kyoju taikan kinen rombunshu henshu iinkai, ed. Nihon kyoikushi ronso: Motoyama Yukihiko kyoju taikan kinen rombunshu. Kyoto: Shibunkaku shuppan, 1988.

    Elisonas, Jurgis. "The Inseparable Trinity: Japan's Relations with China and Korea." In John Whitney Hall, ed. The Cambridge History of Japan, volume 4: Early Modern Japan. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991.

    Ha, Tae-hung, tr., and Sohn Pow-key, ed. Nanjung Ilgi: War Diary of Admiral Yi Sun-sin. Seoul: Yonsei University Press, 1977.

    Ha, Tae-hung, tr., and Sohn Pow-key, ed. Imjin Changch'o: Admiral Yi Sun-sin's Memorials to Court. Seoul: Yonsei University Press, 1981.

    Hamada, Atsushi. "The Japanese Language as Recorded by Chinese and Koreans: Materials for the Historical Study of Japanese." In Zoku Chosen shiryo ni yoru Nihongo kenkyu. Kyoto: Rinsen shoten, 1983.

    Hur, Nam-lin. "A Korean Envoy Encounters Tokugawa Japan: Shin Yuhan and the Korean Embassy of 1719." (Aichi daigaku kokusai komyunikeeshon gakkai) Bunmei 21 4 (2000:3): 61-73.

    Kamiya, Nobuyuki. "Japanese Control of Ezochi and the Role of Northern Koryo." Acta Asiatica 67 (1994): 49-68.

    Kang, Etsuko Hae-Jin. Diplomacy and Ideology in Japanese-Korean Relations: From the Fifteenth to the Eighteenth Century. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1997.

    Kawazoe, Shoji. "Japan and East Asia." In Kozo Yamamura, ed. The Cambridge History of Japan, volume 3: Medieval Japan. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1990.

    Kim, Kichung. "Resistance, Abduction, and Survival: The Documentary Literature of the Imjin War (1592-8)." Korean Culture 20:3 (Fall 1999): 20-29.

    Kim, Tae-chun. "Yi Sun-sin's Fame in Japan." Journal of Social Sciences and Humanities 47 (June 1978): 93-107.

    Kim, Young-Bong. "The Musical Activities of Korean Emissaries (Choson-T'ongshinsa) to Nikko Japan: An Observation Based on Written Records." In Sang-Oak Lee and Duk-Soo Park, eds. Perspectives on Korea. Sydney: Wild Peony, 1998.

    Koh, Sung-jae. "A History of the Cotton Trade between Korea and Japan, 1423-1910." Asian Economies 12 (March 1975): 5-16.

    Lee, Hoon. "Dispute over Territorial Ownership of Tokdo in the Late Chos˘n Period." Korea Observer 28:3 (Autumn 1997): 389-421.

    Lee, Hyoun-jong. "Korean Influence on Japanese Culture (II), (III)." Korean Frontier 1:7 (September 1970): 18-20, 31; 1:9 (November 1970): 16-18, 33.

    Lee, Yong-hee. "The Spiritual Aspect of Korea-Japan Relations: A Historical Review of Complications Arising from the Consciousness of Peripheral Culture." Social Science Journal 3 (1975): 20-45.

    Lewis, James B. "Beyond Sakoku: The Korean Envoy to Edo and the 1719 Diary of Shin Yu-han." Korea Journal 25:11 (November 1985): 22-41.

    Lewis, James B. "Eighteenth-Century Korean and Japanese Images of Each Other." Journal of Social Sciences and Humanities 65 (June 1987): 87-100.

    Marder, Arthur J. "From Jimmu Tenno to Perry: Sea Power in Early Japanese History." The American Historical Review 51:1 (October 1945): 20-31.

    Maske, Andrew. "The Continental Origins of Takatori Ware: The Introduction of Korean Potters and Technology to Japan through the Invasions of 1592-1598." Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan, fourth series 9 (1994): 43-61.

    McCune, George. "The Exchange of Envoys between Korea and Japan during the Tokugawa Period." In John A. Harrison, ed. Japan: Enduring Scholarship Selected from The Far Eastern Quarterly - The Journal of Asian Studies 1941-1971. Tucson, AZ: The University of Arizona Press, 1972.

    Neves, Jaime Ramalhete. "The Portuguese in the Im-Jim War?" Review of Culture 18 (1994): 20-24.

    Park, Seong-Rae. "Korea-Japan Relations and the History of Science and Technology." Korea Journal 32:4 (Winter 1992): 80-88.

    Park, Yune-hee. Admiral Yi Sun-shin and His Turtleboat Armada: A Comprehensive Account of the Resistance of Korea to the 16th Century Japanese Invasion. Seoul: Shinsaeng Press, 1973.

    Park, Yune-hee. Admiral Yi Sun-shin and His Turtleboat Armada. Seoul: The Hanjin Publishing Company, 1978.

    Rhee, Sang-myon. "Fisheries Disputes between Korea and Japan in Yi Dynasty (1392-1910)." In Hyondae kukchepopnon: Yi Hangi paksa hwagap kinyom. Seoul: Pakyongsa, 1978.

    Robinson, Kenneth R. "From Raiders to Traders: Border Security and Border Control in Early Choson, 1392-1450." Korean Studies 16 (1992): 94-115.

    Robinson, Kenneth R. "The Tsushima Governor and Regulation of Japanese Access to Choson in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries." Korean Studies 20 (1996): 23-50.

    Robinson, Kenneth R. "The Jiubian and Ezogachishima Embassies to Choson, 1478-1482." Chosenshi kenkyukai ronbunshu 35 (1997): 55-86 (234-203).

    Robinson, Kenneth R. "The Imposter Branch of the Hatakeyama Family and Japanese-Choson Korea Court Relations, 1455-1580s." Asian Cultural Studies 25 (1999): 67-88.

    Robinson, Kenneth R. "Centering the King of Choson: Aspects of Korean Maritime Diplomacy, 1392-1592." The Journal of Asian Studies 59:1 (February 2000): 109-125.

    Robinson, Kenneth R. "Treated as Treasures: The Circulation of Sutras in Maritime Northeast Asia from 1388 to the Mid-Sixteenth Century." East Asian History 21 (June 2001): 33-54.

    Rockstein, Edward D. "Maritime Trade and Japanese Pirates: Chinese and Korean Responses in Ming Times." Asian and Pacific Quarterly of Cultural and Social Affairs 5:2 (Autumn 1973): 10-19.

    Ryang, Key S. "The Korean-Japanese Relations in the 17th Century." Korea Observer 13:4 (Winter 1982): 434-450.

    Sadler, A.L. "The Naval Campaign in the Korean War of Hideyoshi (1592-1598)." Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan Second Series, 14 (June 1937): 179-208.

    Skubinna, Stephen A. "Hermit Kingdom's Naval Genius: Korean Admiral Yi's Turtle Ships were the First Ironclads." Military History 4 (April 1988): 10, 58-59.

    Stramigioli, Giuliana. "Hideyoshi's Expansionist Policy on the Asiatic Mainland." Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan Third Series, 3 (December 1954): 74-116.

    Tanaka, Takeo, with Robert Sakai. "Japan's Relations with Overseas Countries." In John Whitney Hall and Toyoda Takeshi, eds. Japan in the Muromachi Age. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1977.

    Tashiro, Kazui. "Exports of Gold and Silver During the Early Tokugawa Era, 1600-1750." In Eddy H.G. Van Cauwenberghe, ed. Money, Coins and Commerce: Essays in the Monetary History of Asia and Europe (From Antiquity to Modern Times): Proceedings of th 4th and 5th International Monetary History Conferences. Leuven, Belgium: Leuven University Press, 1991.

    Tashiro, Kazui. "Tsushima han's Korean Trade, 1684-1710." Acta Asiatica 30 (1976): 85-105.

    Tashiro, Kazui. "Foreign Relations during the Tokugawa Period: Sakoku Reexamined." The Journal of Japanese Studies 8:2 (Summer 1982): 283-306.

    Tashiro, Kazui. "Exports of Japan's Silver to China via Korea and Changes in the Tokugawa Monetary System during the 17th and 18th Centuries." In Eddy H.G. Van Cauwenberghe, ed. Precious Metals, Coinage and the Changes of Monetary Structures in Latin America, Europe and Asia (Late Middle Ages-Early Modern Times). Leuven, Belgium: Leuven University Press, 1989.

    Tjoa, Miao-ling M. "A Dutch View of the Korean Embassy to Japan in 1636." Korea Journal 23:1 (January 1983): 21-25.

    Tjoa, Miao-ling M. "Sakoku: The Full Range of Tokugawa Foreign Relations?" In Erika de Poorter, ed. As the Twig is Bent... Essays in Honour of Frits Vos. Amsterdam: J.C. Gieben, Publisher, 1990.

    Tjoa, Miao-ling M. "Korean Embassies in the Tokugawa Period." The Japan Foundation Newsletter 21:1 (July 1993): 17-23.

    Toby, Ronald P. "Reopening the Question of Sakoku: Diplomacy in the Legitimization of the Tokugawa Bakufu." The Journal of Japanese Studies 3:2 (Summer 1977): 323-363.

    Toby, Ronald P. State and Diplomacy in Early Modern Japan: Asia in the Development of the Tokugawa Bakufu. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1984.

    Toby, Ronald P. "Contesting the Centre: International Sources of Japanese National Identity." The International History Review 7:3 (August 1985): 347-363.

    Toby, Ronald P. "Carnival of the Aliens: Korean Embassies in Edo-Period Art and Popular Culture." Monumenta Nipponica 41:4 (Winter 1986): 415-456.
    Noel J. Benadom
    5th Dan, Budo Taijutsu
    Founder, Hyohakusha Do Bujutsu
    www.hyohakusha-do.com
    hyohakushado@yahoo.com

  10. #40
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    well, the way i've heard it (every style has a different story), but all martial arts originated in korea. all throughout japanese history, the japanese sent out raiders into china and korea to "import" people to perform various functions such as swordsmiths, clothes and shoe makers, scribes, slaves, warriors, teachers, etc
    Maybe Koreans think this, but I doubt we can find one Western historian who would even consider that Japanese martial arts are based on Korean arts, if that is what you are saying. Koreans are a proud people, but some of them have a problem in relating the history of their martial arts with reality.

    The best researched article on this subject is "The History and Development of Tae Kyon by Robert Young. It was in the vol. 2, number 2 1999 issue of The Journal of Asian Martial Arts.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Originally posted by don
    Soulend
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    But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
    ______________________________________________

    Whew!

    Lucky for those Yankees that they had the heavy industry...

    Tip o' the Mint Julip to yo...ya'll.

    Happy Holidays!
    I'm only stationed down here, and as neither I nor any of my ancestors were born in the U.S., my family had nothing to do with the U.S. Civil War. The 'Yankees' were quite safe from us.
    David F. Craik

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    Default Topknot?

    The only thing that i noticed that may have been a faux pas (other than the ninja, the use of the word "bushido" in 1876 and a few other minor things) was the scene where Nobutada allows the government troops to cut off his topknot. My opinion may just be based on those "how it should have been" texts as, of course, i dont know how a real meiji period samurai would have reacted but i would have thought that no samurai would allow his topknot to be cut off as that is what defined him as samurai. To lose that would surely mean losing all his honour and to give it up without so much as a fight just because Tom Cruise asks you to seems a bit odd....anyone have any thoughts on this?
    John Linker

  13. #43
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    Default Re: RE: faux pas

    Greetings,

    Originally posted by hyohakushado
    well, the way i've heard it (every style has a different story), but all martial arts originated in korea.
    This is typical thinking from Koreans, however it has little historical (if any) support. We may as well assert that all martial arts come from China, as Koreans were basically Mongolians/Mandarin for a long time.

    ... in korea, there were several different schools of tae kyun, which are now the ancestors of tae kwon do and several other korean arts.
    i dont think anyone really knows if the japanese were regularly teaching kicks with weapons training, or if they learned it from the koreans, but its a fact that the koreans had arts that heavily concentrated on kicks during combat, and they taught this to the japanese before and during the edo period.
    Most, if not all, systems of close-quarters combat in Japan com from sumai, which is the ancestor of nowadays Sumo. Sumai was a brutal unarmed combat, already famous at the Nara period (709-795 CE) (originated from prehistorical Chikara-Kurabe which can probably be equated to the Greek pancratios):

    from Google's cache
    Fighting forms have existed in Japan for centuries. The first references to such unarmed combat arts or systems can be found in the earliest so-called historical records of Japan, the Kojiki (Record of Ancient Matters) and the Nihon Shoki (Chronicles of Japan), which relate the mythological creation of the country and the establishment of the Imperial family. Other glimpses can be found in the older records and pictures depicting sumai (or sumo) no sechie, a rite of the Imperial Court in Nara and Kyoto performed for purposes of divination and to help ensure a bountiful harvest. There is a famous story of a warrior Nomi no Sekuni of Izumo who defeated and killed Tajima no Kehaya in Shimane prefecture while in the presence of Emperor Suinin. Descriptions of the techniques used during this encounter included striking, throwing, restraining & weaponry. These systems of unarmed combat began to be known as Nihon koryu jujutsu (japanese old-style jujutsu), among other related terms, during the Muromachi period (1333-1568), according to densho (transmission scrolls) of the various ryu-ha (martial traditions, "schools") and historical records.
    (emphasis mine)

    Most Koryű jűjutsu/kenp˘/yawara schools extant today have unarmed, armed with knife and armed with wakizashi/sh˘t˘ tecniques within their close-quarters combat syllabus, irregardless of their other arts like kenjustu, batt˘justsu, yari/naginata, etc...


    each warrior or warlord that had access to the knowledge and training of the korean's warrior arts definitely had an advantage on the battlefields when it came to hand to hand combat. each korean style might have had its own traditional teachings, but since it was relatively new in japan, the moves individually more or less merged in with the japanese traditions and katas for a particular style to make a "japanese" style.
    Kicks are a pretty unefficient way of killing someone armored with a yoroi. Most you can get (besides pain in your leg/knee) is getting the samurai on his back. That could be okay to next jump over him and trying to sneak your tant˘ (or better, his tant˘) through any weak spot in the armor. Besides, do you know how hard can be kicking a human tank armed with a sword? (and keeping your leg? leaving aside the fact that the battlefield would be filled with corpses, stones and holes and broken weapons and banners... even if your armor let you get your leg off the ground, you wouldn't want to get off balance even if the Tengu were beaking you in the kabuto...)

    Kicking is not for the battlefield, but for the peasant/unarmored scene of the streets of Ky˘t˘ or Ed˘, and at that time, while exposure to Korean arts existed, indeed, the Japanese already had centuries of punching, grappling and kicking traditions. Besides also the Koreans were influenced by the Japanese, "recent" example: Hapkid˘...

    ...
    from the movie though, since they didnt really differentiate exactly what stlye was what, it cant be determined what he was supposed to be doing.


    hope this helps some.
    The samurai in the Satsuma rebellion against the Emperor Meiji were probably formed in the Jigen-ryű Sobujutsu school. Not that that's what shown in the movie, chanbara is chanbara, but that 's the school they were supposed to know, from historical accounts.

    best regards,

  14. #44
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    Chinese historical records, and Japanese history identify that the ancient kindom od Da Wa was settled by pirates that came from the southern regions of Korea. In fact the Japanese even have an old saying in this regard "scratch a Japanese business man and you'll find a pirate!'

    But, hey its just a movie that should be taken with a very, very large grain of salt!

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    This may not be a faux pas, but didn't samurai all wear their hair in a similar fashion to "Bob" in feudal Japan? It seemed like there was a very wide array of hairstyles in the movie...
    Peter Ross

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