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Thread: kyokushin, asihara, enshin

  1. #16
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    Default taisabaki

    Hello everybody,

    Very interesting subject.
    Taisabaki is very important in our style. It is found throughout the wado-ryu yakusoku kumite curriculum.
    http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/k...iteframes.html
    I believe it is not just manoeuvring towards the blind spot, more entering/irimi-like manoeuvres are also done with taisabaki.
    Taisabaki are evasive movements/manoeuvres where you use the dedication in your opponents attack to gain a superior position.

    hectokan
    I think taisabaki is very important in self-defence but it is said that it takes about 30 years to master taisabaki (or was it 20? anyway it takes a long time). We don't step to the blind spot and then attack, we move to the blindspot ans attack simultanously, or at least we're supposed to.
    So good self-defence yes, easy selfdefence no.

    Taisabaki in wado are generally twisting and sliding (like yori-ashi) (not stepping)movements with the whole body where you end very close-in or behind someone’s back.
    Imagine someone poking a spear at your chest, you move from a forward stance to a horseback stance (twist/ rotate) and simultaneously about 10 cm to the side and 30 cm to the front (slide/ yori-ashi). This twisting sliding movement is what we would call taisabaki.

    Do the Enshin and Ashihara also use these also use these small body and position changes or does it allways involve larger movements to create enough space for a kick as seen and described below?


    have a great Christmas,
    Casper Baar

  2. #17
    n2shotokai Guest

    Default

    For reference only, shoto-kai also uses shifting, twisting and stepping to move to blind spots next to and behind. Although follow-up is normally very close with a hand technique rather than a kick. The thinking being when the opponent realizes how close you are it is distracting which gives you an opportunity. Second, with the emphasis on self-defense, this first opponent becomes a shield and a weapon for additional opponents so you want to keep the first opponent very close.

    I find shotokan in my experience to be very different in that techniques work on angles and sidestepping as opposed to blind spots. I find that in most cases when confronted with a good kicker, the last thing you want to do is stay at kicking range by sidestepping. Most strong kickers (TKD) are at a loss when you move to blind spots. This is also true of most shotokan people as well. Not to diss anyone or any style. Just observations of strengths and weakness we all have.

  3. #18
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    Default

    I think taisabaki is very important in self-defence but it is said that it takes about 30 years to master taisabaki (or was it 20? anyway it takes a long time).


    WOW, if I start training in my late teens then you might end up mastering it by your 50s this is way too much time for me to learn any one single technique or move but hey you might have more patience than I do.



    What your saying is that if you ever think of wanting to execute taisabaki in competiton forget about it. your prime years will be done and over with before your able to learn & grasp taisabaki good enough inorder to apply it for under real cicumstances.

    I understand that the true mastery of any art or technique takes 30yrs or longer to fully comprehend all it's fine details but being able to apply any one movement should not require anyone more than 3 to 4 years to fully learn.

    If it exceeds this time frame then two things must be considered.

    A)the technique is not really a high percentage move and should only useful on certain occasions.

    B)It's just like any other technique in that it has it's place and time inorder for it to be truly practical or effective.
    Last edited by hectokan; 23rd December 2003 at 17:46.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  4. #19
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    Spot on Hector. Usually in our system it takes about three months for a good student to be able to use taisabaki to evade an attack and deliver a counter. If it took years, I wouldn't bother. Self defence is a "now" thing.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  5. #20
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    Default Sabaki

    I agree. It doesn't seem to take Ninomiyas' people that long to grasp it. And, although it is not workable in every situation, it is useful to have in the toolbox.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  6. #21
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    I knew someone would come with an answer like that. This has been bugging me too. On the other hand this what keeps karate interesting for me.

    The picture above shows good skills (unless the opponent made some big mistakes). But this evading by sidestepping can be learnt in a shorter time period. So I agree with you there. It's just that we wouldn't call this taisabaki.
    To step and evade (1) and then turn and counter (2) or
    step, evade, turn and counter (1)

    I've always associated taisabaki with a twisting movement. The simplest example off taisabaki I can come up with is probably this: two judoplayers, both are pushing, one turns his body 180 degrees with a sharp twist of the hips and then throws in the direction the other was pushing. This twist I would call taisabaki.

    To use this twisting movement off the entire body generated from the hips during an evasive movement so that you end up in a superior position is what I understand taisabaki means in our style.

    Uhm..
    After some searching e-budo I found the translation off tai-sabaki is bodymovement. So good taisabaki: Another 20 push-ups. Good taisabaki when attacked: Run, Casper, Run.

    I'll do some more searching an ask around what people from other arts think taisabaki means.
    Casper Baar

  7. #22
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default Sabaki

    Originally posted by Casper Baar


    Do the Enshin and Ashihara also use these also use these small body and position changes or does it allways involve larger movements to create enough space for a kick as seen and described below?


    ,
    Ashihara & Enshin. No , it does not always rely on creating space for kicks. Many of the techniques involve grabbing, judo throws and sweeps and a good amount of the combinations begin with a knee smash (hiza geri).

  8. #23
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    Default

    Thank you,

    For the answer. Off to my moms for christmas now. Will have time to e-budo on the third day off christmas.

    Best wishes to all,

    Casper
    Casper Baar

  9. #24
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    Default Enshin Karate Question.....

    Hello Guys,

    I was following the Enshin Karate thread and I saw that an enshin Karate school was in my area.

    I have a couple of question for anyone that may answer them.

    (1) Does Enshin have forms and how dragged out are they to master? Do they have that unrealistic hip punch thing that keeps me from doing karate so far?

    (2) You can grab and sweep huh? Sounds real good for karate...Are the throws and sweeps like judo without ground work?

    Thanks for any help.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofleisure
    Hello Guys,

    I was following the Enshin Karate thread and I saw that an enshin Karate school was in my area.

    I have a couple of question for anyone that may answer them.

    (1) Does Enshin have forms and how dragged out are they to master? Do they have that unrealistic hip punch thing that keeps me from doing karate so far?

    (2) You can grab and sweep huh? Sounds real good for karate...Are the throws and sweeps like judo without ground work?

    Thanks for any help.
    Please allow us the pleasure by posting your full name for every post as per E-Budo rule...
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  11. #26
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    Man,

    No, the kata that Ashihara has are all 10 steps, no hip chambers in any of them. There are also some combos that are basically left jab, right straight, and uppercut ala boxing.

    But before you throw out all the "classical" basics, the hip (or high chest) chamber is not necessarily just a punching mechanism but can be used for muscle memory for rear elbows and for arm bars after a throw or sweep. Just a thought coming from someone not so classical.


    -Brad Burklund
    Brad Burklund

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Burklund
    Man,

    No, the kata that Ashihara has are all 10 steps, no hip chambers in any of them. There are also some combos that are basically left jab, right straight, and uppercut ala boxing.

    But before you throw out all the "classical" basics, the hip (or high chest) chamber is not necessarily just a punching mechanism but can be used for muscle memory for rear elbows and for arm bars after a throw or sweep. Just a thought coming from someone not so classical.


    -Brad Burklund
    Thanks Brad,

    I am actually going to check this system out today and see what it is all about.

    Sounds like even though I've done arts of another nature for some time....I'd be a fool not to at least investigate this style.

    Sounds good so far.

    Thanks for pointing out the hip thing Brad...this may be true...but that sounds very weak reason to train this motion.

    I am sure there are several jujitsu guys willing to show karateka more productive ways of training for an elbow or arm bar.

    Not one to hate since the art I study pencak silat was a total flowery art to say the least!

    After a while...all the stuff I said was all fluff....was actually a technique that was often applied....you just don't know until you perform a certain set of techniques.

    So yes,I totally see what you are talking about.

    I still saw great benefit in performing the set techniques in my style since they taught body mechanics and movement.Though I did feel as well that it was a nice class fluff filler and would knock off junks of training time in the system.

    Honestly,I see one could become proficent in the art and its techniques in alot less time if it were not due to these things.
    You should do what makes your art..the art...but there is always room for improvement.

    Much like BJJ is somewhat of an improvement over judo atleast in its groundfighting and learning drills.

    Enshin is said to be an improvement over classical karate...well...I will see for myself today.

    I will also join and post to let others know my experience as well.
    It is amazing how systems of the martial arts are so different yet so alike.

    Roberto Kastner

  13. #28
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    Roberto,

    Enshin is a good style, but like all things else when studied, style might offer education however it has always been up to the student to put it to use.

    Similarly, I think, people have a tendacy to associate ability to be automatically invested in the student when taking up a particular training program or "style." But just like training soccer or American football since you were in grade school until college, doesn't mean you'll make it to the pros.

    I think BJJ is great, but I have seen some really good Judo players as well. Depends on the person to make the difference, but I do think how one trains has a lot to do with it.

    BTW, I am generally not a kata guy, whether the newer ones in Ashihara and Enshin or the classical non-gendai Okinawan kinds.

    Good luck in your search.

    -Brad Burklund
    Brad Burklund

  14. #29
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    Does anybody know, if the Seidokaikan and Daido Juku/Kudo guys practice any kind of kata ?

    Regards,


    Florian Wiessmann

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFlea
    Does anybody know, if the Seidokaikan and Daido Juku/Kudo guys practice any kind of kata ?

    Regards,


    Florian Wiessmann
    A bit late to reply, but ....

    I dont know about Seidokaikan, but daido juku has a few traditional katas at high level (apparently they dont start learning them until black belt level). Most notably tensho no kata (the classic gojuryu kata, as it is done in kyokushin)
    Martin Hultgren
    Kyokushinkai, Sweden

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