Tanemura Shoto - Daito-ryu Menkyo Kaiden?

[Cantarone]

The Genbukan e-magazine publish an article about the conection between Tanemura Sensei and Daito Ryu, also informs about Tanemura Sensei having awarded recently a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and Daito Ryu Kenjutsu(??????).
I think is a little weird and strange, no offence for Genbukan people, but.......strange.
Anyone with more information about this matter?

Regards,

[John Lindsey]

Can you provide a link to this article?

[Cantarone]

you can find it in www.takaharudojo.org in the Iroiro magazine.
but most of the information is in spanish or flemish.
Regards,

[John Lindsey]

Ah, I looked at it and it appears to say that Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo kaiden. I thought you said he awarded someone menkyo kaiden. I think he received it on Dec 17th? I don't know anything about it, but I will find out. I know he has been studying it for many years, and also Itto-ryu. I will try and find out from what branch it came from...

[Neil Yamamoto]

How about cut and paste the section you have in question for us? My spanish is rusty to sort through all of it.

[Cantarone]

Originally posted by John Lindsey
Ah, I looked at it and it appears to say that Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo kaiden. I thought you said he awarded someone menkyo kaiden. I think he received it on Dec 17th? I don't know anything about it, but I will find out. I know he has been studying it for many years, and also Itto-ryu. I will try and find out from what branch it came from...

Yes John, you right, Sorry, my bad(english).
I prefer not to cut and past, with that maybe Im breaking some copyright.
BTW, Itto-ryu means Daito Ryu Kenjutsu? Because Tanemura Sensei also got a Menkyo kaiden in that ryu.

[John Lindsey]

I do not think so, but I am trying to find out the story now. I know that Tanemura Sensei studied under Sato Kimbei, and I think he trained under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi. In our Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei, a little bit of Daito-ryu is studied for godan, which I am working on, so this is all very interesting. Tanemura Sensei once said that it is important to continue to study martial arts, no matter your age or how much you think you already know.

[MarkF]

There is a thread in Spanish on the subject, where one poster is questioning the validity of Tanemura actually having actually studied it and whether or not this is something which attracts more attention, and by that more students, and such.

The poster who answered said he had written the article, that he had seen with his own eyes and that the proof is there in the densho (prueba=densho?).

He says that Grand master Tanemura has a large and successful school, the Genbukan, and doesn't need to attract anyone or anything, that he had received, on December 10, the menkyo kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

This is what it says about the subject:

"Siempre estoy abierto a nuevas opiniones. aparte del Menkyo Kaiden obtenido el 17 de diciembre 2003 (sensei me lo ha confirmado el mismo dia por teléfono) tambien ha tenido entrenamiento en Daito Ryu / Hakko Ryu por parte de Sato Kinbei."

My Translation (and I see E-budo has been mentioned on that forum by the poster who started this thread):

I am always open to other opinions, and apart from the Menkyo Kaiden received on the 17th of december 2003 (sensei has confirmed it to me himself the same day on the telephone) he also had training in Daito-Ryu/Hakko-ryu under Sato Kinbei.

another copy/paste:

"...tengo la fortuna de conocer a mucha gente que si la practica y que dirigen dojos, tanto en Hokkaido, Tokyo, Osaka y otras ciudades japonesas, ninguno de ellos ha oido hablar de esa supesta conexion y mucho menos de la legitimidad de un nuevo Menkyo Kaiden."

Translation (and I apologize to Cantarone if I have misunderstood any of this):

...I have the good fortune of knowing/meeting many people who train/practice it and who run dojo[in Daito-Ryu], many in Hokkaido, Tokyo, Osaka and other Japanese cities, none of them have heard anything said of the supposed connection, much less the legitmacy of a new Menkyo Kaiden."

As Neil asked for cut and pastes, I've left out the name of the other party in the thread on the forum of that website and only took what was directly relevant on the subject.


Mark

[Cantarone]

Mark,
Traslation is correct. Before start this topic I asked directly to Genbukan Spain about the new menkyo kaiden and I mentioned that if the explanation does not look so convincing I will post in this forum where some specialist in daito ryu can verify the authenticity of the menkyo kaiden.
Its not my intention to start any flame war and I got the feeling that the person who runs the genbukan spanish website is an honest and dedicated person. Is just that a mekyo kaiden is a very serious thing and I will like to know the legitimacy of the menkyo of Tanemura Sensei.
Regards

[Renshi]

He says that Grand master Tanemura has a large and successful school, the Genbukan, and doesn't need to attract anyone or anything, that he had received, on December 10, the menkyo kaiden in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

On the 17th of december 2003 in a telephone conversation between myself and Tanemura Sensei , Sensei told me the following :

I just returned from Okinawa and I could receive Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aiki and sword

These are exactly Sensei's words.
And this is what can be found in the membercenter forum of the spanish website.

Sincerely

[Nathan Scott]

Wow, this is all news to me.

I know that Tanemura Sensei studied under Sato Kimbei, and I think he trained under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi.

John, this relationship between Sato Kinbei and Yamamoto Kakuyoshi appears to be legit (though I don't know to what degree either one of them learned the art). These two seem to have issued densho pretty freely though, judging by the number of people claiming lineage to one of both of them. Yamamoto is credited as being the last student of Takeda Sokaku, and is listed in his eimeiroku as such.

Here is an existing threadon Sato Kinbei:

Sato Kinbei and Daito ryu

Didn't know that Tanemura Sensei ever studied any Daito ryu, and I definitely have not heard of Daito ryu in Okinawa!

For the record though, just about anyone being issued a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito ryu is going to have a tough time being accepted by the DR community. Kondo was issued a MK by Tokimune, and as such, may be able to issue MK himself. The only other branch holding a Menkyo Kaiden (specifically) in DR is the Kodokai, and I don't know how the MK issue is handled within the Kodokai (Horikawa Kodo, founder of the Kodokai, was issued MK by Sokaku/Tokimune).

Interesting,

[chrismoses]

I was under the impression that there was no Menkyo Kaiden for weapon arts (sword specifically) per se in Daito Ryu curriculum. Anybody else know more about this than I?

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
John, this relationship between Sato Kinbei and Yamamoto Kakuyoshi appears to be legit (though I don't know to what degree either one of them learned the art). These two seem to have issued densho pretty freely though, judging by the number of people claiming lineage to one of both of them. Yamamoto is credited as being the last student of Takeda Sokaku, and is listed in his eimeiroku as such.

Sato has a site (with an English section) here. Sato Kinbei was actually a doctor, and the site lists a long list of arts that he was certified to teach in. He taught Yoshimaru Keisetsu, who has published a number of books on Daito-ryu in Japanese, and who was originally a fairly senior student of Yukiyoshi Sagawa before leaving him for Sato and Yamamoto.

Other than that I can't speak for legitimacy one way or the other.

Best,

Chris

[Brian Griffin]

Dear Mr. Vermeeren,

Thank you for attempting to clarify this matter.
I believe some of the misunderstanding may be due to the poly-lingual nature of this discussion.
It appears that a conversation in (I presume) Japanese has been translated into Spanish, and the Spanish has then been re-translated into English.
This sort of thing can often allow unintended inaccuracies to creep in.

Originally posted by Renshi
On the 17th of december 2003 in a telephone conversation between myself and Tanemura Sensei , Sensei told me the following :

I just returned from Okinawa and I could receive Menkyo Kaiden in Daito Ryu Aiki and sword

These are exactly Sensei's words.

In the earlier posts, you reported that Tanemura s. received a menkyo kaiden on December 17.

In this quote you report that the conversation took place on December 17, and that Tanemura s. said he "could receive Menkyo Kaiden."

In English, that verb construction is used to describe a future possibility that is uncertain. It is not used to describe an event in the past, nor is it used for a future event whose outcome is already certain.

Let me illustrate by re-translating (back into Spanish) the quote that you posted:

Acabo de regresar de Okinawa y es posible que yo pueda recibir Menkio Kaiden...

Is that what Tanemura said to you?

If so, that's very different from claiming that Tanemura has received menkyo kaiden.

Would it be possible for you to report Tanemura s.'s words in the language he spoke them?

If he has received menkyo kaiden, from whom did he receive it, and how did that individual gain the authority to grant menkyo kaiden?

[John Lindsey]

I did ask Tanemura Sensei about this via email, and it seems he does not want to say anything at this time. He is rather a private person in regards to his own training. For instance, I do not know what certification he has in Itto-ryu or iaido, but I know he has studied both. Elements of Daito-ryu have been in our KJJR system since I started back in 1994.