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Thread: cross training in judo

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by chrismoses

    -1) Don't know how you train, but I don't fall for joint locks that are half open. I don't consider that intrinsic to the system, sounds like poor technique.
    -2)Most Nippon Jujutsu involves throwing a partner and letting them get back up. Any other option makes it really hard to continue paying the rent. Likewise to cooperation by the attacker, classical schools call it kata. Misguided cooperation by an attacker is called tanking. Nothing new here, in fact Judo even has this kind of practice!
    1) Complete locking in aikido is impossible if one want to preserve safety of practice. This is physics, not my or your desire. Daito ryu do complete locking, but in static way. Judo does it in dynamic way but only selected (for safety) techniques are allowed.
    Aikido has no restrictions to the vocabulary of techniques, AND consists of dynamic practice, so in order to preserve uke, tori must apply half open lock. Joints are not enough strong to survive.
    Full power application on completely locked joint = breaking this joint.
    If you not agree here with me, may be you never felt locked joint

    2) We are talking here about judo, not Nippon Jujutsu. Every throw in judo competition is followed by immediate attempt to lock.

    Originally posted by chrismoses

    If I follow your own logic however, apparenly it's impossible for Aikidoka to develop effective technique. That makes me sad. !
    It makes me sick; when I hear aikido ppl talking about "effective martial art" with zero sparring. It is not even funny anymore, it is indigestible.

    Originally posted by chrismoses

    What I meant by stating that Judo and Aikido are nearly identical was that both arts teach subtle body movements designed to unbalance and throw an attacker. Judo does so with direct torso and hip control, Aikido makes it seem more magical by effecting the same umbalancing through the limbs (in general). You know, "I just touched him and I fell down!" That whole schtick.
    Please, Chris, goal in judo is competition = sparring. Everything, from methodology using most modern scientifically approach, weight training, food, way of life of athletes are submitted to reach this goal. And if you are over 25, you are not taken seriously. You can't simply compete, so most of the dojo will reject you.
    You are talking about few similarities - but ALL MA shares those subtle body movement. You know why? --- Human anatomy. Nothing new under the sun.
    Judo and Aikido are NOT identical AT ALL.

    ps. You didn't answer: Why Founder created aikido, being efficient martial artist and good fighter? He didn't need more efficient MA, he WAS efficient.Judo existed, he knew it. If Judo and Aikido are same thing/nearly identical so WHY he created aikido? Only for money?
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

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    Default wee

    Quoting myself:
    "On a *philosophical* level, modern sport Judo certainly differs from modern Aikido. I would argue that traditional Judo and Aikido were fairly similar from a philosophical point of view."

    I'm not talking about Olympic sport Judo. That seemed rather clear. I'm talking about Judo the martial art not wrestling in a gi.

    There are ways to completely lock a joint at full power and not destroy that joint. That's why they call it a joint lock. Full power is when the joint is locked fully. Destroying a joint is a technique in itself. Classical Judo is most certainly Nippon Jujutsu as it is a direct deriviative of its predecessors.

    Why did O-Sensei create Aikido? Who knows, I wasn't there. According to most of the research I have read it was a combination of Rev. Deguchi's influence (according to Inue, Rev. Deguchi decided on the name Aikido) and possibly the desire to not have to pay Takeda Sokaku every time he got a new student.
    Christian Moses
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    Default Re: wee

    Originally posted by chrismoses
    Quoting myself:
    "On a *philosophical* level, modern sport Judo certainly differs from modern Aikido. I would argue that traditional Judo and Aikido were fairly similar from a philosophical point of view."
    Quite true - same with many other Budo. The theme of preserving life and limb runs strong. This is a reflection of many years of Tokugawa peace and the movement towards Do rather than battlefield. One could say that Ueshiba M. expressed his personal Aikido as a communion with the Kami but like Judo practitoners were not required to buy into his religion.
    I'm not talking about Olympic sport Judo. That seemed rather clear. I'm talking about Judo the martial art not wrestling in a gi.
    Of course you are not and I think "the evil Dr. S." is being a little bloody minded in the debate. People take Judo (as with Aikido) for all kinds of reasons and every Judo dojo I've trained in has had a parallel Jujutsu class (read nasty waza) or teaches the techniques as part fo the regular class. Yes there are heavy duty Judo teams existing for shiai only but the idea that life ends at 25 is a non-starter.
    Why did O-Sensei create Aikido? Who knows, I wasn't there. According to most of the research I have read it was a combination of Rev. Deguchi's influence (according to Inue, Rev. Deguchi decided on the name Aikido) and possibly the desire to not have to pay Takeda Sokaku every time he got a new student.
    Actually it was changing the name to Aikijujutsu from Jujutsu. The man with the hair had nothing to do with the change of the name to Aikido - that came later. The money demands by Takeda might have had something to do with it but definately all the name changes and what not came long before Aikido turned into an exercise program. In fact the power and dynamic nature of Aikido was innovative and not to be confused with the open circles and other post-war changes.
    Last edited by PRehse; 6th January 2004 at 06:22.

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by szczepan
    You read way too much between the lines. I respect judo more that you can detect from a tone of my posts. Time to buy a new detector?
    It isn't just me. Several posts addressed the implication outright, and other agreed with chrismoses's response.


    I dont practice judo on regular basic. My wife does. I'm trying simply to survive her techniques on me . Ok, we spar friendly sometimes
    This is the heart of the matter. The value of knowledge is not homeopathic. I practice both arts. Several others who have posted in this thread do as well. We all seem to have similar things to say. You have much less experience with Judo. Your post a dissenting opinion. Your opinion does not carry much credence in this case, sorry.

    An example of where you lack of knowledge harms your position:
    Originally posted by szczepan
    1. On technical level, judo is based on competition, aikido on cooperation.
    One of the guiding principles of judo is "jita kyoei" which is often translated as "mutual welfare and benefit". During practice you see it all the time: when doing uchikomi, when a sempai works with a kohai in randori and doesn't use full power, when nage takes care of uke during the throw, when a visiting judoka is asked to demonstrate his tokui waza (favorite techniqe), etc., etc., etc.

    I think I can safely say that competition is the omote of Judo (what is visible on the surface), and cooperation is the ura (the underlying truth).

    Mark Kruger

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    Default Re: wee

    Originally posted by chrismoses
    I'm talking about Judo the martial art not wrestling in a gi.
    It not existe anymore.Cold dead.
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  6. #21
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    Originally posted by kruger

    You have much less experience with Judo. Your post a dissenting opinion. Your opinion does not carry much credence in this case, sorry.
    Mark Kruger
    I could also write:
    You have much less experience with aikido. Your post a dissenting opinion. Your opinion does not carry much credence in this case, sorry.

    But I didn't. Instead, I presented some strong arguments and I discussed your arguments and not your personal background.
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

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    Default Re: Re: wee

    Originally posted by PRehse

    Yes there are heavy duty Judo teams existing for shiai only but the idea that life ends at 25 is a non-starter.
    Peter, it existe competition even for old timers. Everybody practice in judo for compete, all processus of teaching, excution techniques is focused on competition rules. Rules chage - methodology chage.
    Even those "exercises cooperatifs"--- prepration of elements of techniques have one goal - competition.

    How many judoka practice judo as MA and not as sport? 1%? 5%?

    95 % is for competition. 99% aikidoka practice for entertainment, fun, social reasons...Where do you see any similarities in the goals of practice?
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  8. #23
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    Aikido would be much more credible if randori was practiced more often and with more intensity, in many Aikido dojos randori is not practiced ever. There is not way you can really have an effective technique if you can not apply it on resisting partner. Like Judo you could limit the # of tecnhiques that are relatively safe while preserving the more dangereous for general cooperative practice. Randori in Aikido needs to be specialized and developed more, it can't be the same as Judo but it can be developed none the less.

    They need to put on grappling gloves and headgear on occasion and practice techniques against realistic strikes and combinations of strikes. They need to learn how to counter wrestling takedowns and how to do koshinage techniques with partners trying to throw them as well. It does not have to become about competition, good randori is enough.

    You can say that Judo has become too sport oriented however the sport techniques used in Judo competition are very effective and they are effective against people who know how to counter and resist them. They are incredibly more effective on people who have not developed the skills to resist and counter them.

    In my opinion every Aikido class should dedicate some time to some form of randori or limited sparring, whether it be multi attacker randori, one on one with strikes, one on one with throws, etc.

    It needs to happen. Aikido is being held back by desparate clinging to staunch traditionalism. You need not abandon the princicples and philosophy of Aikido in order to evolve.

  9. #24
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    Sounds just like tomiki style...


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *Technically* Aikido and Judo are nearly identical.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Really good Judo, as art, as practiced by Kano, Mifune, Osawa, Geis, etc, IS nearly identical to Aikido. And yes, szcezepan, it does still exist.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  10. #25
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    Default using that expensive edumacation...

    "How many judoka practice judo as MA and not as sport? 1%? 5%?

    95 % is for competition. 99% aikidoka practice for entertainment, fun, social reasons...Where do you see any similarities in the goals of practice?"

    and

    "It not existe anymore.Cold dead."
    -szczepan

    So in psychology this is called the availability heuristic, your experience is that no one does classical Judo or that modern Judo dojos exist for anything other than competition so you jump to the assumption that they do not exist anywhere. I suppose it could also be the base-rate fallacy, they are related phenomena. Either way, it's a logical fallacy. You likewise assume that your goals for practice are indicative of "99%" of the practitioners of the art. I have no statistical data to draw from to refute your claims, but since I know for a fact that you don't have any statistical data to support them, it really doesn't bother me much.

    This public service message has been brought to you by a Jesuit Education, Thank you very much...
    Christian Moses
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    And if you are over 25, you are not taken seriously. You can't simply compete...
    Snort! Tell that to Alexander Karelin! Heck, tell it to my collegiate wrestling coach who made the olympic team as an alternate at age 34 or so! In fact, speaking of age...anyone got the stats for olympic wrestlers...I'll bet 24 is !not! the average, since many don't actually compete in the olympics untill **after** they complete their college career.

    There are obvious differences and similarities between aikido and judo. And many of the best aikidoka have a grounding in both. I wouldn't say they are the same, but I sure would say the skills and some of the goals seem awfully close to me. As someone who likes to feel at least some resistance when practicing aikido, I also have to say that too much of that seems to hinder learning some of the depths of the art. This is one major difference to judo.

    Chris Moses; Takeda Sensei Rocks! Don't know if I'll ever get a real clue as to how, but I think I'm going to give it a shot...

    Ron

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    Default Long Live the Fellowship

    Hey Chris Moses...I knew there was some reason why I agreed with youtr argument...its the Jesuit thing...I too am a member of that most esteemed fellowship....AMDG....
    JJM

  13. #28
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    Default One Data Point

    Interesting to see so many views on the subject.

    My personal experience with Judo as an adjunct to my longer-term aikido training was over a period of two years or so with Yoshio Matsumura Sensei at Columbia.

    A good 90% of our practice was kakari-geiko, but even in that practice, which has been characterized as (rough paraphrase alert) "aikido-like insofar as uke tanks for nage," I was regularly admonished to firm up my stance -- which was presented as considerably different than simply "making things difficult for nage" a la competitive shiai.

    As both uke and nage, this emphasis was of great benefit to my practice of aikido.

    The other 10% was more on the order of randori, but different from competition/point-based shiai in that a throw was only the beginning of newaza, rather than the occasion for award of a point. We played through until submission.

    On the "quality of kamae" issue noted above, the "it's not over till it's over" aspect of playing until submission, and most importantly, the familiarity with VERY close range (through which nage must pass in order to make many aikido waza functional) I found that period of cross-training in Judo extremely valuable.

    The related matters of trips, stops, sweeps, and alternative approaches to kuzushi (think about the relationship between say, osoto gari and tenchinage kuzushi) were also quite informative.

    Though far from saying my aikido is complete, I can say that it would be much more incomplete had I not had that period of practice.

    What the experiences of others under other instructors are is something about which I can only speculate.....

    Submitted in the hope these observations might be useful to someone.

    Fred Little

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    It was usefull to me Fred; though my judo experience is much more informal (and in some cases, self-taught), I'd say your comments are pretty much right on the money for anybody studying judo *without* formal shiai in mind.

    Even at 42

    Ron

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    Originally posted by Ron Tisdale


    Even at 42

    Ron
    I remember 42....sometimes!

    FL

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