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Thread: cross training in judo

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Re: Further thoughts

    Originally posted by szczepan
    What I'm interested in is why Founder developed them in half-open form. He knew Daito ryu pins and locks, however he didn't use in aikido.
    With all due respect Szczepan, the observation that some of the Founder's students, particularly those with whom you have trained, always or often demonstrate locks and pins in half-open form is only that, an observation regarding your particular experience.

    It is, at best, circumstantial evidence for your assertion that
    Founder developed them in half-open form
    . I have both observed and/or felt some direct students of the Founder as well as their senior students demonstrate fully closed locks and pins in dynamic practice in both the United States and Japan. Those observations would seem to point to a different conclusion than yours.

    I would also add the secondary observation that those individuals only performed such fully closed locks and pins when they had an uke who could be counted on to be awake, on point, and responsive to a sufficient degree to minimize the likelihood of damage.

    Third, even in a half-open lock or pin, if competently applied, as Ron and others have pointed out, the opening necessary for atemi or alternative finishes is there. It is uke's responsibility to observe those openings and danger points and respond appropriately.

    How much a senior practitioner will dig out of his or her bag of tricks and actually show in any given case has a great deal to do with the quality of uke's engagement. If uke persists in stupid resistance that creates an opening that could lead to more severe consequences, the likelihood on most aikido mats is that nage won't show much more than half-open locks and pins.

    Even in dojo where such things as fully closed locks are practiced, that tends to be an "after-class by mutual agreement" situation so as to maintain both decorum and safety in classes where it is the responsibility of senior students to provide a useful and safe model for junior students at a wide range of skill and experience levels.

    As a dojo-wide phenomenon, that can lead to changes in an entire group's norms of practice, but again, I don't think such changes by one individual, or one school, or even a significant number of schools are the basis for broad statements about aikido in general, or the Founder's aikido in particular, whatever they may say about the individuals or schools with whom you may be familiar.

    Best regards,

    Fred Little

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    Default proving the point

    "This is nice example of pin that is half-open. Another one is half-open lock - shihonage, where uke can turn his hips to be able to land safely.
    Another one is iriminage - uke can very easy throw tori, and most aikidokas don't even bother to control a neck of uke in efficient way.
    I can continue like that by all aikido techniques. It is curious that many of you folks don't see all these openings."
    -szczepan

    This relates directly to some of my comments earlier. Techniques done in this fasion are not indicative of Aikido in general, but *crappy* Aikido. Sloppy techniques are dangerous. Good solid control allows nage to lead and place uke in a safe place simultaneously prventing uke (or aite) from doing harm to nage. This is the whole point. The solid foundations of correct technique allow the possibility of mutual preservation. Force on force conflict does not allow this option.

    Szczepan, do you think this is how these techniques *should* be done, or are you stating how you see them done. I would totally agree that many styles perform the techniques in the manner you describe, but I feel that this is unfortunate and not at all indicative of the founder's art or his wishes.
    Christian Moses
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    Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
    Maybe that's why you rejected the yoseikan you saw?
    At the risk of offending Yoseikan in Quebec is not all it could be. I also know that Szczepan has trained with Yoshinkan people but there is another set of problems and I doubt in either case he's seen what it could be.

  4. #64
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    Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
    Both iwama stylists and yoshinkan stylists focus on controling the neck as a joint by grabbing the collar and using leverage between the front and back hands.
    Ron, what do you guys do when there is no collar to grab? If you specifically do something different, as you seemingly must, why not do it with the assumption that there is no collar to grab in the first place? Specifically, I'm curious about the Yoshinkan perspective because I'm much less familiar with it.

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    I can't speak for Ron, (and I have never done Yoshinkan) but the idea I get when being told to take the collar is just to make sure you are working on the rear shikaku (dead angle/off-balance point). A training aid.

    Personally I like to place my hand on the side of their necks around the carotid area.
    M Johnston

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    Originally posted by Ron Tisdale

    I also second Tim's statement about the 'openings'. And what I find strange is that when others negate what you say with their experience you respond with 'I'm not talking about that'
    Ron
    Honourable Ron,
    Take a look at the topic - we are discussing if judo is the same as aikido.
    We are not discussing if we can remodel aikido techniques to make them work efficiently.
    We are not discussing which style of aikido does efficient techniques.


    I presented tons of arguments to support these, that aikido is VERY different from judo. Only few of them were selected to discuss. And some of Your(I mean all who participate in this discussion) arguments are very good. But others --- no good counter arguments were presented.

    I think, major misunderstanding, is about what is half-open lock(or pin). Do you remember the answer of Founder to invitation from Emperor of Japan? What did he said? That he can't present fake, cos for real, he would broke his ukes. Did you ever think, why he told thing like that?

    IMO - it is pretty clear. If your lock is completely closed and you tend to do dynamic technique = you must brake joint. If there is ANY loose in a "locked" joint, this is half-open lock. For Founder - half-open lock it was a fake.

    This is also my personal experience, quite few times, I was locked in a way, that even very small movement could broke my joints. This was very dangerous for me, fortunately, my tori was very generous for me.
    I don't believe in normal, dynamic practice with such closed lock. This is a fantasy.
    That's why I believe, that Founder did developed half-open locks for purpose.
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

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    I always come into discussions way to late....by then there is all this...blah blah blah in it..and it hurts my head to try to read it all...never-the-less, I would agree that Aikido shares a great many qualities as Judo. Is the difference in the implementation? No...not the way it's taught at my dojo. The only difference is distance....not the throw itself. I watch a judo practicioner do a technique and say...that's this in Aikido. My sensei says yes...they are just closer together is all. Kuzushi and using your partners momentum and strength agaisnt them is what makes a throw happen....not your strength...which is why most Judo schools teach basically wrestling..and nothing more.

    I don't study Judo, I have...but not for quite a long time...I have also studied a bit of Brazilian Jujutsu..so I do have some knowledge of grappling arts. My instructor/s reference Judo quite often during Aikido classes, since we have cross-trainers...which seem to be technically better than those who just do only either Aikido or Judo.

    Someone refered to Aikido is limited when the confrontation goes to the ground....I only partially agree with that. It can be just as effective if you view it in this manner. Judo and Aikido are the same other than distance...even on the ground...Judo and Aikido are the same.....Aikidoka's just have to apply Aikido concepts in a horizontal plane instead of a vertical one. Granted if someone has you in a mount then having your back planted to the ground may be a disadvantage...maybe and maybe not.

    One last thing.....the comment:

    "Anyone wants to explain, how it is possible to develop effective martial technique without sparring?" Easy...it's called cooperative randori. Neither tori or uke strive to "WIN"....someone is the driver of the motion...the other just follows and it's at a slow...and I emphasize SLOW pace...so that you can catch the subtlies from each side of things...you may see something that you didn't before when you were going fast.....you keep moving with your partner until the motion gets to a terminal point and someone is thrown. Then you analyze and break down the why...and what of it.


    Just my .02cents
    John

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    Originally posted by Mushin Ronin


    The only difference is distance....not the throw itself. I watch a judo practicioner do a technique and say...that's this in Aikido. My sensei says yes...they are just closer together is all. Kuzushi and using your partners momentum and strength agaisnt them is what makes a throw happen....not your strength...which is why most Judo schools teach basically wrestling..and nothing more.

    Just my .02cents
    John
    OK one more difference: power of throw is generated very differently in aikido and in judo.
    In aikido power inside of body is generated by twist of koshi.In judo, this element doesn't exist. That happened, cos starting position of hips in aikido is 90 degree to the hips of attacker, and in judo hips tori are parallel to uke's hips.
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

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    Originally posted by szczepan
    OK one more difference: power of throw is generated very differently in aikido and in judo.
    In aikido power inside of body is generated by twist of koshi.In judo, this element doesn't exist. That happened, cos starting position of hips in the moment of throw in aikido is 90 degree to the hips of attacker, and in judo hips tori are parallel to uke's hips.
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

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    Actually...I think you meant to say it the other way around. From your experience with Judo power of the throw comes from the position and twisting of the hips and in Aikido you understand the power of the throw comes from the angle of the body to uke?

    I have learned it differently. The power in either Aikido or Judo as it is taught where I study relies on tori moving his center(to include the whole body..not just the hips) in a manner that uke has a difficulty dealing with. We call it kihara. The power that uke initialy generates gets multiplied 10 times over. All tori is doing is moving with the energy not trying to control it or make a throw happen. Let uke do the work and create the throw....not the otherway around.

    I hope I explained that well.

    John

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    "OK one more difference: power of throw is generated very differently in aikido and in judo.
    In aikido power inside of body is generated by twist of koshi.In judo, this element doesn't exist. That happened, cos starting position of hips in aikido is 90 degree to the hips of attacker, and in judo hips tori are parallel to uke's hips."
    -Mr. S.

    As an old Philosophy professor of mine used to say, "Clearly false..."

    Again this a gross and generally false generalization. Not every throw in Judo is done with the hips parallel to uke, and in Aikido not every throw in Aikido is done with the hips perpendicular to uke. To use Takeda Yoshinobu as an example, nearly every throw is done with the hips squared to uke and he almost never turns to throw. This style of training is very hard for people unfamiliar with his movements to adopt at first, but soon the simplicity of his movements become clear. I also think most Judoka would disagree with your explanation.

    Some excerpts from Kodokan Judo by Kano Jigoro:
    Uki-Otoshi (taught in some Aikido schools as a form of koshi-nage)
    "...load him [uke] on your hip and throw him by twisting your hip..."

    O-Goshi (a similar technique to Uki-Otoshi)
    "...load him on your right hip, then raise your hip and twist to throw him."

    There are plenty of examples where the rules you have stated, simply do not apply.
    Christian Moses
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  12. #72
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    Originally posted by szczepan
    Take a look at the topic - we are discussing if judo is the same as aikido. We are not discussing if we can remodel aikido techniques to make them work efficiently. We are not discussing which style of aikido does efficient techniques.
    The original topic was the compatibility of Judo and Aikido. You, apparently, have decided to argue that they are not similar.

    Of course the two arts are not identical. If they were, they would be the same art. What is similar enough? Is it a matter of the physical details, or are we talking about philosophy, or something else? If Judo newaza is too much of a difference, then what about Tomiki Aikido's shiai? I learned a different sankyo from my first Aikido sensei than what I'm currently studying. Does this mean that I wasn't studying Aikido then, or does it mean that I'm not studying Aikido now, or am I studying Aikido in both cases? Where do you draw the line, and how do you justify it?

    Going back to the orignial topic and your current argument, compatibility and similarity are two different things. Even if they were not similar, that would not neccessarily effect the compatibility of the two arts. However, there is a large degree of similarity between the two arts. You seem to be unable, or unwilling, to see the similarity. For example, from your repeated comments about competition in Judo, it appears that you do not see past the surface of Judo randori.

    I presented tons of arguments to support these, that aikido is VERY different from judo. Only few of them were selected to discuss. And some of Your(I mean all who participate in this discussion) arguments are very good. But others --- no good counter arguments were presented.
    While you have posted tons, there don't seem to be tons of different arguments that Judo is very different from Aikido. You seem to have three themes on why Judo and Aikido are not compatible:
    1) Judo is competitive and Aikido is cooperative.
    2) Aikido is for talking to kami, Judo isn't.
    3) Judo newaza is more effective than Aikido ground work. (This has morphed into Judo newaza is different from Aikido ground work.)

    All of these arguments have been rebutted. Relying on you to judge on the strength of these counter arguments raises conflict of interest issues.

    Mark Kruger

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    Originally posted by szczepan
    OK one more difference: power of throw is generated very differently in aikido and in judo.
    In aikido power inside of body is generated by twist of koshi.In judo, this element doesn't exist. That happened, cos starting position of hips in aikido is 90 degree to the hips of attacker, and in judo hips tori are parallel to uke's hips.
    The hips don't have to be parallel. The start position does not have to be square. I regularly start with one side forward, both in randori and in uchikomi. Nor does it hold true in the throw as exemplified by: Ouchi gari, kouchi gari, uki goshi, and tani otoshi. When I execute these techniques, my hips are not parallel to my partners hips. I'm sure that an even more experienced judoka could come up with even more examples, but these serve to point out the fallacy of your argument.

    Please stop trying to describe Judo. Your claims about Judo only expose your lack of knowledge.

    Mark Kruger

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    Default Pins, locks, judo and such

    Whew, this thread has run everywhere and all of it an excellent discussion, in my opinion. Szczepan, I don't know here you saw Yoseikan and I am not sure if your comment means you did not like what you saw or you saw something that was powerful and therefore Yoseikan is excluded from you comments.

    I will assure you that we apply full force to joint locks and pins. In several of our sutemi we are stangling uke before we execute the throw and the unwritten standard has always been that uke should start slapping out while he (or she) is still in the air. When I perform shihonage, the last thing uke wants to do is try to turn and roll out of the technique, that is quite easy to stop.

    I think the issue rests with what others have said, what is your purpose? Judo has been physical education and sport for a hundred years. The injury rate, if they used aikido/daito ryu types of joint locks and pins would have been astronomical. Other aikidoka practice aiki as a spiritual do and there is always cooperation between uke and tori. I noted earlier that Mochizuki (Yoseikan) left Ueshiba because of this very issue - that Ueshiba was leaving the martial aspects of the art and being more spiritual. Mochizuki went and taught aikido in Europe in 1951 and returned to tell OSensei that there were just situations where aikido did not work. What did work were the harder forms of techniques and judo and some karate, that is the reason for the combination found in Yoseikan.

    Are there "openings" and "half locks" in aikido? Of course. That must go without saying. If I were to execute ikkyo (robuse in Yoseikan)at full speed with uke taking the full force of a wrist crank and without me allowing for the fall, I can assure you uke would suffer injury. Now, I have been teaching for about 11 years and it is my experience that students who are severely injured tend not to come back and they often seek out Yoga classes and Tai Chi.

    For Ron and Dex, when we pin the arm, if it is above 90 degrees, it is almost impossible to roll out of. We learn it that way (imagine this) because our creator was a highly ranked Judoka and he knew that if you leave the arm level with or below the shoulder, a very wise uke can roll out. Ron, I agree, there are certainly ways to make sure you do not want to roll out!

    As a final piece of information, I want everyone to know that Yoseikan no longer considers itself to be an aikido style. The official name is Yoseikan Budo. Now, what still makes us distinct are the aiki movements we incorporate whether we are punching, kicking, throwing or doing kobudo. I hope this doesn't mean I can no longer post in the aiki section.

    Phil Farmer
    docphil

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    Everyone else has stated my case for me.

    Erik, we (or at least I) do as Dex does, seize the corotid. Sometimes I cut to the lower back, sometimes I place the hand on the cocxix (sp) and push down, sometimes I adjust the timing and there is no nee for the second hand (shomen ate). There are a number of things that can be (and are) done.

    I still think this is a valuable discussion...even if we go around in circles a bit.

    Ron

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