USMC close combat training

[Joseph Svinth]

There is an interesting discussion going on here:

http://www.budoseek.net/ubb/Forum26/HTML/000008.html

I have some strong opinions on the topic that are stated there, but please follow the links provided at BudoSeek before discussing the topic here, otherwise the discussion will make no sense at all.

[yamatodamashii]

If these colonels were Lances under me, I would currently be giving them a lecture on "Good initiative, bad judgement".

[MarkF]

While the Army and Air Force get occasional itches for new "close quarter training" programs, it seems the Marines scratch the most.

The description of a marine in fatigues wearing a black belt certainly is not new. Go to any of the Nindo ryu websites, and there will be at least one or two links of people dressed exactly like this.

The benefits of this are going to be all those whose business cards are changed to "Kung Fu Marine Close Quarter Training Instructor" just below the two patches suggested by the article.


Mark

[Kolschey]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF


The benefits of this are going to be all those whose business cards are changed to "Kung Fu Marine Close Quarter Training Instructor" just below the two patches suggested by the article.


Mark


Darn! You've been reading my mind! Seriously though, I can't help but wonder what sort of political implications would come with a ranked system. Who would administer the grading, and under what conditions? I would be curious as to whether there is a proposed mechanism in place for quality control, particularly given that part of the proposed curriculum is "creative visualisation".
Having read Strozzi Heckler's account of training Green Berets in Aikido, it would appear that this is an outgrowth of some of the issues which he found compelling. It does seem, though, that many of the people who have service experience are less that impressed. Is the entire premise flawed, or simply in need of intensive modification?
How should the USMC (or other branches) make appropriate decisions about the relevant skills and training in an H2H curriculum?

[yamatodamashii]

I think that hand to hand combat training in the military is necessary. LINE, Monadnock, even Combat Hitting Skills, were definitely highlights of my USMC training; I was sorry to hear of some of them being disbanded.
I think it would be GREAT to have a system like this in place in the military--I just don't think that the contemporary incarnations of judo and aikido are the way to go. How about we have W. "Hock" Hochheim run one camp, and let Paul Vunak run the other. Marines don't need to "explore each other's energy" (I say, pausing to spit ). They need someone who can teach them how to REALLY take somebody apart after their defensive position runs out of ammo.

[Joseph Svinth]

1. According to the October 2000 "Marine Corps Gazette", USMC operating forces currently do not have enough ammunition to support weapons requal, let alone live fire FTX. (5.56mm ball costs about 20c a shot, .50 cal a bit over a dollar.) Yes, the US Government just gave 20 million rounds to Bosnia, but hey, that's different.

Anyway, reductions in ammo budgets save several million dollars a year. One can buy a lot of kung fu lessons for a couple million dollars a year, you know?

2. Let's say everyone in the Marine Corps becomes Gracie himself. As the Secret Service, does that bother you? Not much, you have Uzis. Now, let's say everyone in the Marine Corps learns to shoot like Lee Harvey Oswald, capable of making multiple hits with a bolt action rifle while shooting downhill at accelerating targets at 200 yards range. As the Secret Service, does that bother you? I suggest it does; your solution is give those kids a wrestling mat.

3. A simple and enjoyable test. Go to the video store and rent two movies, "Tribes" and "Full Metal Jacket". Heckler's program is similar to "Tribes". Ignore Jan Michael Vincent; what is the impact that sort of training has on the DI and the rest of the platoon? Speaking as a parent and taxpayer, was the rest of the platoon and the Corps hurt or improved by the exposure? Next view "Full Metal Jacket", with Lee Ermy Jr. playing LtCol Bristol. Ask the same question.

Now, assume both programs are extremes. Toward which end of the spectrum do you think a Marine Corps of the 21st century should go, and why.

[yamatodamashii]

I didn't have that information about Marines not being able to re-qual--that's a very serious problem. There is a very good REASON that all Marines are riflemen.
MY point, ignorant of that, was simply that if we're going to do hth training anyway--why not do something more practical and combat oriented?

[Edited by yamatodamashii on 10-14-2000 at 03:26 PM]

[Joseph Svinth]

LtCol Bristol is both Force Recon and senior in the International Hoplological Society, so in theory his program should be about as practical-ap as exists anywhere.

Be that as it may, the fundamental question is what is the bottom line? Is the goal of a martial arts program (anybody's program) killing and being killed? Or is it learning to remain cool under fire and to make sound judgments under severe stress? If the former, why not do what Henry VIII did and recruit from the prisons rather than the high schools? The recruiters' job would be so much easier. But if the latter, then what is wrong with learning to breathe, center, and relax?

Meanwhile, I keep reminding myself that the discussion is probably moot because, as was sent to me offline, these programs always FAIL due to one or more of the following reasons:

Unit commanders refuse to support these programs because they don't want injuries and potential repercussions.

It isn't made mandatory in the way basic skills training, swim qual, rifle qual, and chemical warfare training are.

It isn't a normal part of "daily PT".

There is no provision for friendly cross unit competitions. After all, there is no kata, kumite, tameshiwari, etc.

Which is just as well, otherwise soon we'll have to deal with the problems of trying to explain to people why our classes don't guarantee you black belt in 247 hours like USMCDojo.

[yamatodamashii]

The reason that recruiting isn't done from prisons is that people in prison USUALLY have a history of disobedience . If we're gonna teach hand to hand, teach hand-to-hand that's useful. If we want to center and relax, teach Transcendental Meditation. It's a LOT quicker.

Other than that, I completely agree. USMCdojo?!? LMAO!

By the way, I hope you didn't take offense at my jibe in the member's forum. My recent exposure to your "living encyclopediahood" has been giving quite a "big fish in a little pond" syndrome...

[kusanku]

Yamato- I agree with you that military programs shold be centered on military objectives.Joe however also has a point.

How about: Breathe, Center. Relax, and shoot?

yes, I got on the member's forum too, that was just too funny.

I also read Heckler's book on training Special Forces.I was in the USAF on a four service base at the tail end of the Vietnam era, and used to train in martial art at the base dojo with members of all the services, including the SF guys and the Marines, also army and Air Force..

Professionals,all. The marines were marines, and that means riflemen, and the SF guys were as pleasant a bunch of cross trained rangers as you could ever wish to meet. Not at all the picture of people that the movies give but very much as Heckler describes them in his book.

If you had something real, they respected it, no matter what it was, but they would systematically probe any claim made to see where the weakness was.

The Marines on the other hand , would find out by the simple expedient of putting you in the sights, and charging.

Both methods were effective and you had to be ready and you'd better be real.

We all hit it off quite well, which always has made me wonder about myself.:SD

At any rate, what type H2H training do I think a twenty-first century Marine Corps needs?

Mission specific stuff.And if you are going to have variable missions, you had best have training suited to the different type missions.

Is there a place for sniffing flowers and finding yourselves?Good Lord.

I think Colonel Bristol's stuff will instill fighting spirit.Maybe the Spartan stuff needs to be left out of it.

But Heckler is not a military man, never was, he was never even in the Air Force:-), and he's teaching Marines?I remember Tribes, and Full Metal Jacket too. Extremes is right.

I kinda want the guys from Full Metal Jacket nearby if the base is getting overrun. Or at least the ones from Firebase Gloria, including especially the Air Cav.'Suicide Mission yes indeed yo ho, yo ho...:-)'

I don't care if they found themselves and commune with themselves or not.


And if I recall correctly, on the firing range, the instructions were something like, relax,breathe, hold, squeeze,bulls eye.

[yamatodamashii]

Heckler? Who is Heckler?

[Robert Carver]

But Heckler is not a military man, never was, he was never even in the Air Force:-), and he's teaching Marines?

I am in the process of reading the book "In Search of the Warrior Spirit" by Richard Strozzi Heckler. You should reread the book John. Richard Strozzi Heckler is former Corporal Richard S Heckler, USMC. He served in the mid-sixties. Says it right there in the book.

Anyway, the book is excellent. Definately recommended reading whether you agree with his approach or not.

[kusanku]

SoHeckler was in the USMC? Didn't come off that way, I must have glossed over that part.

He fit with the SF guys like Iron and Cheese.

Anyway, his approach is the mystical Aikido of the Uyeshiba -ites.

Which is impressive until you consider Yoshinkan or something else used by the Tokyo Riot Police. maybe that's what they ought to teach them.

I still think Col. Bristol may have, at leas physically, a better approach.

Not the best though. I actually think they should revive for the combat mission, the Applegate-fairbairn-Sykes CQB stuff, for the peacekeeping mission perhaps the judo approach or the yoshinkan aikido type stuff, for the embassy guards maybe the SPEAR system of Tony Blauer, and for Police missions the chin na restraint techniques with strike backup.

Heck, if they're not going to give them any ammo, they need the best.

Seems kinda strange though.

The meditation stuff, maybe they should teach that and maybe not, I really wonder.

I have had my trouble with some of the hombu aikido philosophy when it came time to put it in practice, and I wonder why this is being taught U.S. Marines, is all.

really, for Marine Close Quarter combat, usually the rifle is going to be present, and if not and you want simple, I would suggest basic karate.

Something on the lines of what is taught in, maybe , Okinawan shorin style. My teachers were both ex marines in these arts.

They picked them up real well.

[Joseph Svinth]

Personally I think the true fundamental is breathe, center, and relax. Do I need to drop the hammer? No? Well, if I'm breathing, centered, and relaxed, probably I won't. As a result, no regrets. But if yes, then the round goes center mass. It is sad, but it is necessary.

Fear is not good for teaching breathing, centering, and relaxation.

Visualizations are good, too. However, they need to be selected better. If we assume Spartans, Zulus (Shaka liked literal witch-hunts, kinda like McCarthy, only he had his victims impaled), and the Imperial Japanese are not the best military role models for post-modern combined arms militaries, who would we recommend?

Well, let's start by thinking about how the Marines are likely to be used. They are going to be inserted into somebody else's back yard.

So in World War II there is Okinawa, where Eugene Sledge's book "With the Old Breed at Pelelieu and Okinawa" lets you know exactly what life was like. In Korea, there is Frozen Chosen. The Marines went in slow, to MacArthur's disgust, and came out slow, to the consternation of the Chinese. And in Vietnam, there is comparison and contrast, the Foreign Legion at Dien Bien Phu and the Marines at Khe Sahn. (Air superiority is the key lesson there; never forget that the USMC provides about 15% of US tactical airpower, and probably 60% of its non-helicopter close-air support. "The Great Santini" is the novel and movie of Marine air of the post-WWII era.)

Meanwhile, if you're simultaneously trying to teach ethics (and the importance of thinking things through), well, there's always SSgt Matthew McKeown, a Parris Island DI who one night in the mid-1950s decided to conduct some unauthorized night training in which half a dozen recruits died. There is Oliver North, selling cocaine for contras and then wrapping himself in a flag and running for Congress. There is the A-6 driver who, flying too low, snagged the gondola in Italy and then destroyed the film in the flight recorder to cover his tracks. And there is Lee Harvey Oswald, who was either set up or the finest rifle shot in history.

These examples, good and bad, within our grandparents' lifetimes, come not from outside, but from inside, our Corps. Tatamae and honne are not entirely Japanese, we just call them different things. And me, I want to tell kids why they are part of the finest combined arms force in the world, the US Naval community. These colors don't run is the lesson we teach, from our own history, our own examples, our own blood.

[yamatodamashii]

I'm going to discuss this visualization thing, but I want first to establish that I remain unimpressed by either program--I'm not arguing IN FAVOR of "the Spartans"--I just think that Mr. Svinth (is Joe okay?) may be missing the point.

The idea of visualizing the "Spartan Warrior" (at least, in my opinion) is akin to having someone with a moral dilemma ask themselves "What would my hero do?". What's being created is an historically inaccurate, idealized "charicature" of the "perfect warrior", to provide a character reference for hostile situations. It is NOT being suggested the the Marines actually re-create the historical lifestyle of the condom namesake.

I also notice that you never got around to suggesting any POSITIVE role-models. Respectfully, I suggest that that is because role-models are people, all of whom are flawed (even if only through cultural bias, like the Spartans). I might suggest "Chesty" Puller--THE Marine--as a role-model. He was tough (swimming with a .50 cal, anyone?), inventive (oh, like... air superiority), and eloquent (come on, you apes! You wanna live forever?). However, I am quite certain that, given the time and resources, I could dig up any number of deleterious things to say about him--off the top of my head, his policy that "a Marine isn't a Marine unless he's had at least one NJP."

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Change of Topic:

I think that, by now, it goes without saying that I fully support your ideas about the US Naval community and "the colors that never run".



OOOH-Rah!

[Edited by yamatodamashii on 10-16-2000 at 05:25 AM]