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Thread: Tsuba and Bokuto

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    Iron Chef Guest

    Default Tsuba and Bokuto

    I was looking at some of the pictures at jinmukan.com One thing I noticed was that nobody had tsuba on their bokuto. Our bokuto have handguards. Seems to save a lot of smashed fingers during katachi. Are their Ryu that just won’t use tsuba on their bokuto?

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    Default Re: Tsuba and Bokuto

    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    I was looking at some of the pictures at jinmukan.com One thing I noticed was that nobody had tsuba on their bokuto. Our bokuto have handguards. Seems to save a lot of smashed fingers during katachi. Are their Ryu that just won’t use tsuba on their bokuto?
    If it is supposed to be katori shinto ryu, then yes.
    Roar Ulvestad

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    Default Some do, some don't ...

    I always make the mid-level students remove theirs. At that level, they should have enough control so that if they get a finger whacked in kumitachi, they know they did something wrong!

    My instructor taught me that the tsuba should be superfluous (sp?). I was taught that their reason for being was to keep your hand from slipping onto the blade, not to keep your hand from getting whacked. Despite that, I am grateful for it when doing kumitachi with the newer students as they always seem to be aiming at my fingers!

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    Default Re: Tsuba and Bokuto

    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    ...Are their Ryu that just won’t use tsuba on their bokuto?
    If you look at photos and films of koryu demos, many -- purhaps most -- don't use tsuba on their bokken/bokuto. Kendoka most often do.
    Originally posted by pgsmith
    ...I was taught that their reason for being was to keep your hand from slipping onto the blade, not to keep your hand from getting whacked...
    This topic just came up a few days ago in another thread. I was taught as Paul was, and said so. Then Scott Irey posted that tsuba are to protect your hand from your opponent.

    I respect Scott's opinion, but I wish he wouldn't have stated his as an absolute and made me look like a fool. I always something like "this is what I was taught, but others may differ."

    I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one to have been taught that tsuba are, at least in part, intended to protect your hand from your own blade.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Default Try Jo

    Each to their own. This strikes me as similar to the budo vs bujutsu arguments. People seem to draw conclusions based on what is probably a relatively small deal. By the way, if you do some SMR Jo you'll soon find that having a tsuba on your bokken is not an indication of skill or lack thereof, it's an absolute necessity. Briefly perusing Draeger's trilogy on budo, I found the following:

    With tsuba:
    Hokushin Itto Ryu
    Maniwa Nen Ryu
    Araki Ryu (though, if I recall correctly, Mr. Amdur doesn't use a tsuba in his demos. Different branch perhaps)
    Shindo Muso Ryu

    Without:
    Yagyu Shinkage Ryu
    Kashima Shinto Ryu
    Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

    This list was probably a bad idea, but then again, it might be fun for everyone to pull out their books, videos, and what have you. I can see it now, five pages later: "My book has a picture of a Wasamari Ryu kata, and they used tsuba!" "Well, I just watched Akuma Sensei, the 23rd soke of Wasamari Ryu, on my video of his famous 1931 demo, and he didn't use a tsuba. It only goes to show the lessening of skill throughout the 20th century!"

    Some koryu use tsuba, some don't. I doubt it has anything to do with skill level. I've never seen or heard of a live blade being wielded without one. Yes, I suppose one could argue that on a live sword its purpose is to stop one's hand from sliding onto the blade, and I'm sure it does, but come on. It's there for defense, folks, and there ain't no koryu that doesn't use a tsuba on their live blades.
    Nathan Sherrard

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    Default Defense? ...

    Yes, I suppose one could argue that on a live sword its purpose is to stop one's hand from sliding onto the blade, and I'm sure it does, but come on. It's there for defense, folks, and there ain't no koryu that doesn't use a tsuba on their live blades.
    While I agree that all katana have tsuba, I do not agree on your reasoning. If tsuba were for defense, alot of what I learned would be done differently I think. They also would have made tsuba out of hardened steel the way armor is made, and I've never heard of a hardened steel tsuba ... ever. Take, for example, this beautiful sukashi tsuba. It is fashioned from shakudo, which is an alloy of copper and gold. I seriously doubt that this would provide much in the way of defense. I was taught that if you need the tsuba to protect yourself, you are doing something wrong. Of course, as in all things Japanese, there are different ideas on the matter I'm sure.



    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  7. #7
    Iron Chef Guest

    Default

    Yes SMR Jo is part of the Jikishinkai syllabus and No Tsuba could really hurt I think. Then again that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

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    Default

    Tsuba are absolutely necessary in Araki-ryu - of the line I practice. They are about an inch thick, and octagonal in shape, for what it's worth. In Toda-ha Buko-ryu, we do not use tsuba. In the latter, due to the way the sword is used, it is not necessary for standard kata practice - one can safely work without one (altho' there are moves implicit that would require a tsuba). In Araki-ryu, given the close in work, the tsuba-zeri (locking of the handguards), fingers would be snapping like breadsticks without them.

    Note, of course, that one doesn't find katana without tsuba. Even in the ryu without - it's absolutely necessary to keep your hand from sliding up onto the blade in tsuki (ask O.J. Simpson), and it is a necessary protection of the hands for a lot of moves which, even if not a specialty in one's own ryu definitely will be in others.

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

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    Default Tsuba Tsuba Tsu-BA

    I obviously got the Boku-ryu Bokken confused with the Araki-ryu one. I actually haven't seen the Araki-ryu demonstrated by Mr. Amdur for quite a while, and although I did qualify my statement with an "if I recall...", I'm still rather ashamed at not remembering inch thick octagonal tsuba. Anyway, sorry about the misinformation.



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    Nathan Sherrard







    *must..resist urge...to gloat...*
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    Default

    Originally posted by Ellis Amdur

    Note, of course, that one doesn't find katana without tsuba. Even in the ryu without - it's absolutely necessary to keep your hand from sliding up onto the blade in tsuki (ask O.J. Simpson), and it is a necessary protection of the hands for a lot of moves which, even if not a specialty in one's own ryu definitely will be in others.

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com
    While not disputing the above at all, I always though that Tsuba were there for Blade balance primarily and self hand protection as a secondary thing. I know my Iai's entire feel change completely when I installed an above average tsuba
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

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    Default

    Yes and no. If tsuba weren't necessary, smiths would have had no difficulty in forging a weapon and creating a hilt that gave the proper balance. (I handled a Burmese Dah the other day - used very differently - a shorter one-handed curved sword - no tsuba - balanced just fine).

    That the tsuba is necessary required the the sword then be made so that it and the tsuba together would provide proper balance.

    Same with bokuto, really. When I've either made or had made an Araki-ryu bokuto, I've had to ensure that the balance of the weapon is such that it is UNBALANCED without the heavy tsuba.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

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    Default

    Tendo ryu also requires a tsuba. Preferably large and thick. These are harder to come by. The Tsuba on my tachi are about two thirds the thickness of my teacher's.

    Furthermore, tachi-awase practice requires the use of kote to protect the hands. These are just standard naginata kote, not the onigote of Ona-ha Itto ryu.
    Eric Montes

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    Default

    Boku Ryu? Do you mean, perhaps, Bokuden Ryu?
    Earl Hartman

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    Default

    For what it’s worth. Kashima Shinto Ryu does not use tsuba while using bokkuto most of the time. The majority of the kata are done with fukuro shinai that use rather large tsuba. This is important as there are many movements that encompass tsuba zeriai.

    Although there were plenty of sukashi tsuba, fuchi/ kasgira made. From my research I am willing to bet that they were almost never used in battle during the Sengoku period, but changed out for heavy iron furniture. This is in regards to shakudo and shiboichi materials.

    Bushi started carrying more shakudo type set ups in the Edo period and beyond.
    They simply wouldn’t hold up to the rigors of a battle field environment.

    I agree that tsuba are for both protecting the hand from the blade that is being swung at you as well as your own hand slipping forward on the blade. There are many ryuha that use tsuba ziriai waza as most battles would end up in a clinch anyway.

    My two cents.


    BIG TONY
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    Default Oh great...

    "There are many ryuha that use tsuba ziriai waza as most battles would end up in a clinch anyway." -Big T

    Oh great, like I needed another reason not to mix it up with you, "Frankly I feel the odds are slightly in your favor..."

    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
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    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

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