Offensive and Defensive stances

[Hotsuma]

I was wondering about something I read in History and Tradition. In the section about kamae, Stephen Hayes splits them into specializations (i.e. offensive, defensive, recieving.) I was wondering if there was any truth to this? Is jumonji really an offensive kamae while hira is a recieving kamae?

[tenchijin2]

No, it is not true. that is not how kamae are taught. Whether that section was added by Hayes, or perhaps a misunderstanding on his part, it is just not true.

[DWeidman]

For those that know:

How long had Mr. Hayes been training in the Bujinkan when he ghost wrote History and Tradition for Hatsumi Sensei? I am looking for active time training under Hatsumi Sensei...

I suspect the answer will put things into perspective.

-Daniel Weidman

PS. It is NOT a slam against Mr. Hayes.

[choombatta]

Do you think Hatsumi was aware of the misinterpretations as they were being published by Mr. Hayes?

[tenchijin2]

I think that question is impossible to answer without asking Hatsumi sensei directly. Anything else is just speculation and gossip.

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Hotsuma
I was wondering about something I read in History and Tradition. In the section about kamae, Stephen Hayes splits them into specializations (i.e. offensive, defensive, recieving.) I was wondering if there was any truth to this? Is jumonji really an offensive kamae while hira is a recieving kamae?

From what I've seen over the years there is nothing remotely defensive about anything in Hatsumi sensei's budo. Kamae appear to me to serve these functions in particular:

-- at the most basic level, they're mnemonic keys to keep you aware of where all your body parts are at any given point in time

-- they're ways of positioning the body and limbs to be "ready to do something"

-- they're ways of "inviting" an opponent to attack along particular paths and/or in ways which appear to him to be easier, so that you can more easily exploit his efforts (comparable to, on a larger scale, advantageously channeling an enemy force's advance and disposition through proper use of key terrain augmented by such things as obstacles and mines)

-- they're ways of ensuring your own structural stability versus that of the opponent, within the execution of a technique

[Rolling Elbow]

Yeah I'd say go with Dale's answer... well put and not a page long. I also think it encompasses the idea of the "kamae" very well.

[doraemon]

I always liked the term 'transitional posture' over "stance".
The kamae are good places from which to observe an opponent.
Good aligmnents to move through on the way to somewhere else.
Good, solid, economical body shapes from which changes in plans can be made on a millisecond to millisecond basis.

Of course, if we really make them our own, we can throw them away and then rediscover them, anew.

yippee!.

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Dale Seago
-- at the most basic level, they're mnemonic keys to keep you aware of where all your body parts are at any given point in time

I know what you meant here, Dale, but my first thought when reading this was, "hopefully still attached..."

Jeff

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Kreth
I know what you meant here, Dale, but my first thought when reading this was, "hopefully still attached..."

Ideally, this awareness will also help one to ensure that they stay attached.

[byakuryu]

hi all

just been looking through hatsumi sensei's translated version of the ten chi jin, my understanding of kamae is like hatsumi sensei/tanemura taught hayes, every kamae has an intension behind it, for example
'shizen' posture is likened to earth because its its a power posture, where u are imoveable and routed to the ground. Hatsumi sensei always says 'when your techniques lack power, u must get lower to the gound'.
when in ichimonji posture it is not fixed, thats why hayes compares it to water and known as recieving posture.
most of this kamae theory is featured on hatsumi's quest tapes, gyokko ryu and koto ryu.

i believe many people of been taught in this way, like myself, does help with understanding kamae, as they are NOT just pretty stances with no meaning.

just a thought

matthew morgan
bujinkan budo taijutsu

[tenchijin2]

Matthew, I don't want to pick on you because I know you are offering your insight, but...

That is not correct. Just using your own example: earth is shizen. Then "when you lack power get *lower* to the ground". Shizen is the most upright posture we have, so how can that be?

Kamae are not associated with elements! That's a godai idea and NOT a part of the Bujinkan.

How's this: if each kamae were associated with an element, then when you did a technique which typically involves say, 3 or 4 kamae, then you'd have to 'shift gears' 3 or 4 times during the technique.

I understand it may be useful to associate them with godai, but kamae are just strategic ways of keeping track of your space and body parts, like Dale said above. Each kamae lends itself to certain *distances* or directions more than others, perhaps, but that isn't elemental or godai.

Please, we need to stop passing misinformation as Bujinkan facts!

[byakuryu]

hi

sorry about the confustion, i didnt mean shizen kamae and hatsumi sensei's quote to mean the same.

godai or no godai am sure kamae have more meaning to them.
hatsumi sensei even comments on kamae in the gyokko quest video, feeling behind kamae etc.

but anyway say if the godai didnt exsist and mr hayes made it up, who cares, i think the godai theory helps in training giving yourself an idea of what ya can do while in kamae, how u can move.... gives people a way of thinking.......
everyone has there own ideas of training, this is mine.

hey just came across sanshin in hatsumi's ten chi jin,
sanshin no kata- three heart form:
earth,water,fire,wind @ void forms

matthew morgan

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by byakuryu
hi all

just been looking through hatsumi sensei's translated version of the ten chi jin, my understanding of kamae is like hatsumi sensei/tanemura taught hayes, every kamae has an intension behind it, just a thought

matthew morgan
bujinkan budo taijutsu

Key word translation.
I just re-glanced at my Japanese TCHRnM to make sure before I reply, and it has none of that nor calling any posture defense or offensive. I do know Stan Skrabut's translation refers to them that way.

[Oni]

Quick point of reference....the way I explain the 'elements' to my students...example: you can use ichimonji when feeling 'watery'...ichimonji is not water. Ichimonji can be used in a variety of different ways. Our basic version just works well within the water idea/attitude. Same with the other various kamae/elemental relationships. They are starting points and idea relations.

This has actually always been how the material/idea has actually been presented to me vs. what has been put down in various books.