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Thread: Gun control=Genocide

  1. #16
    Mekugi Guest

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    Maybe not by him, but who will be next? Does it have to be an inside power? Can you be SOOooo sure that it won't happen? How can you trust a government that DOES NOT trust you?

    WWII...Germany...NRA sending boatloads of firearms to the UK (yeah that old thing again).

    http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Remember that Tony Blair fellow and what he hasn't done to us?

    Banned most guns back in the mid 90s and i'm yet to see much ethnic clensing or genocide going on here.

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    Firstly, if I were a pro gun control Jew, I might find the article extremely offensive.

    Secondly,

    Rwanda: the Hutu did not disarm the Hutu before massacring as many as possible.
    Serbia: the ethnic Albanians were not disarmed prior to the genocide attempt by the Serbs.

    If, as an American you are worried about being killed by your government, get yourself a nuclear bomb and train it on Washington. Without it you don't have a chance of stopping them. Advise all your neighbours to purchase one, since not owning one is effectively countenancing the Holocaust!

    I will put my faith and effort into the democratic process, in order to keep myself safe here, over the pond, however misguided that may be.
    Jonathan Adrian Treloar
    Perception is strong, Sight is weak - Musashi
    Right forearm is strong, Sight is weak - Treloar

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by Mekugi
    Maybe not by him, but who will be next? Does it have to be an inside power? Can you be SOOooo sure that it won't happen? How can you trust a government that DOES NOT trust you?

    WWII...Germany...NRA sending boatloads of firearms to the UK (yeah that old thing again).

    http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm
    I trust my government not to genocidally wipe me out, yes.

    You are getting caught up in high level government decisions. Lets pretend for a second that Tony Blair woke up one morning and decided that northerners spoke funny and needed to be ethnically clensed to preserve the Queen's English. At the end of the chain of command is a person. A human being. A fellow countryman. A soldier.

    I'm sure you have friends/aquaintences/family/maybe even you who were/are in the military. How many of them do you think would open fire on unarmed fellow countrymen? How many of them could live with committing cold blooded murder?

    Could you look an unarmed, innocent man in the eyes and pull the trigger? I know i couldn't, no matter who told me it was the right thing to do.

    All these regime's you are throwing up as support for your arguement that one day the British government will wipe us out have other things in common. Such as the suspension of free elections.

    Surely you'd be a lot more worried if your president declared the suspension of free elections than if he declared a ban on firearms? At least if a president were to try and ban guns (yes, i know he can't because of the consitution, but hypothetically), a few years later someon would run against him who was pro-gun and you'd all get your guns back. Wheras if the president suspended free elections, he could do whatever the hell he liked.

    And yes, America did ship over thousands of guns for civil use during WW2, but the British military did it's job and they weren't needed. That's just as true today as it ever was. A ground invasion of the UK would not be feasible.
    Huw Larsen

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  4. #19
    Mekugi Guest

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    I couldn't do that, but there are plenty that have, can, will and could. British history doesn't exactly lend itself to a the concept of a non-genocide nation, considering the past. Remember that it was jolly old England that invented the concentration camp. Then there was that little thing in Ireland under Churchill.

    Less feeling, more thought!

    -R

    Originally posted by larsen_huw

    Could you look an unarmed, innocent man in the eyes and pull the trigger? I know i couldn't, no matter who told me it was the right thing to do.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 5th February 2004 at 12:31.

  5. #20
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    Originally posted by Mekugi
    I couldn't do that, but there are plenty that have, can, will and could. British history doesn't exactly lend itself to a the concept of a non-genocide nation, considering the past. Remember that it was jolly old England that invented the concentration camp.

    Less feeling, more thought!

    -R
    Yep, in the Boer War. Can't see what that has to do with genocide. We interned some locals. Then when the war was over they were released. You did exactly the same to the Japanese (or anyone with slitty eyes) living in America during WW2.

    I stand by my faith in the British military to defend us from outside invasion and to not indulge in any ethnic clensing or genocide on British soil, thus negating the need to arm civilians to stop mass murder. Arming for self defense against an individual's attack is another matter, but that's nothing to do with this thread.

    Also, you haven't mentioned my points about free elections. Do you agree that free elections a more important factor than gun control in countries such as Iraq and Germany where ethnic clensing has gone on?
    Huw Larsen

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    Originally posted by Mekugi
    ... Then there was that little thing in Ireland under Churchill.

    ...
    Sorry, i'd already started replying when you edited your post.

    Churchill's dead.

    You guys had a little thing with the Indians. I'm sure all those who were involved with it initially are also dead. Thus i wouldn't claim that America has a taste for ethnic clensing.
    Huw Larsen

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  7. #22
    Mekugi Guest

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    The "peasants" of Rwanda were unarmed, if I remember correctly. It was that way in 1994. Since when did that change?

    Originally posted by Bod


    Rwanda: the Hutu did not disarm the Hutu before massacring as many as possible.
    Serbia: the ethnic Albanians were not disarmed prior to the genocide attempt by the Serbs.

  8. #23
    Mekugi Guest

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    That's true. Take a guess to what a primary tactic was in that fight?


    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Sorry, i'd already started replying when you edited your post.

    Churchill's dead.

    You guys had a little thing with the Indians. I'm sure all those who were involved with it initially are also dead. Thus i wouldn't claim that America has a taste for ethnic clensing.

  9. #24
    Mekugi Guest

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    Yeah, the difference being we didn't *starve* them or *murder* them.http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml We unjustly locked them behind barbed wire. Then again, there is that one thing with the Japanese-Americans in the US Army in Italy.....

    Free elections and firearms are in the same document in the USA. What's that tell ya? A document that the UK doesn't even have a fair reproduction of in their legislation, btw....

    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Yep, in the Boer War. Can't see what that has to do with genocide. We interned some locals. Then when the war was over they were released. You did exactly the same to the Japanese (or anyone with slitty eyes) living in America during WW2.

    I stand by my faith in the British military to defend us from outside invasion and to not indulge in any ethnic clensing or genocide on British soil, thus negating the need to arm civilians to stop mass murder. Arming for self defense against an individual's attack is another matter, but that's nothing to do with this thread.

    Also, you haven't mentioned my points about free elections. Do you agree that free elections a more important factor than gun control in countries such as Iraq and Germany where ethnic clensing has gone on?
    Last edited by Mekugi; 5th February 2004 at 13:02.

  10. #25
    Mekugi Guest

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    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Churchill's dead.
    So, you don't believe it can happen, but yet it already has. The UK has done it before, but it will never do it again? Where do you base your feeling of "won't happen" from? Trying to use the arguement that "don't you trust your US government" won't work on me. I don't trust the US government- because of all the autrocities you have mentioned about my government- and the feeling that it could happen by the founding fathers of my Country. Getting the idea?

  11. #26
    Mekugi Guest

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    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    You guys had a little thing with the Indians. I'm sure all those who were involved with it initially are also dead. Thus i wouldn't claim that America has a taste for ethnic clensing.
    Just as a note here, the Native Americans have a nation within the USA. Technically, they are not part of the USA.

    Here's a little something on the Gubberment and the autrocities commited on the "Japanese aliens" that went on:

    ENEMY ALIEN CURFEW FRIDAY

    German, Japs, Italians In New Restrictions

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    All enemy aliens and Japanese-Americans in the western halves of California, Oregon and Washington and in the southern half of Arizona will be placed under rigid new curfew regulations Friday, and any violators will be ?gimmediately punished.?h

    Announced by Lieut. Gen. John L. DeWitt, commander of the Western Defense Command, the order is intended to facilitate enforcement of measures against sabotage and fifth column activity.

    It was contained in the third public proclamation by General DeWitt since the war started.


    Extends Arms Ban
    The proclamation also extended the ban on possession of firearms, war materials, short-wave radio receiving and transmitting sets and other contraband to Japanese-Americans. Enemy aliens already had been forbidden to have such articles.

    The new regulations superseded those ordered for certain areas last January by Atty. Gen. Francis Biddle. Curfew exemptions granted by United States attorneys were revoked, effective Friday.

    Under the new edict Japanese, German and Italian aliens and Japanese-Americans must remain at home between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m.

    Persons affected may not travel more than five miles from their homes except to settle their affairs at wartime civilian control offices. Under a law approved by President Roosevelt last week violators face penalties of a $5000 fine or one year?fs imprisonment or both.


    Will Be Enforced

    Warning that the curfew would be enforced ?grigidly,?h General DeWitt said:

    ?gMilitary necessity dictates such action and military necessity requires strictest enforcement. As a patriotic duty, each citizen is urged to report without delay to local authorities or the FBI any violation he may observe.?h
    The proclamation was expected to speed evacuation of strategic areas. Reception centers for evacuees have been established at Manzanar, Cal., in Owens Valley, and near Blythe, Cal., in the Colorado River Valley. The War Relocation Authority announced plans yesterday to place 20,000 Japanese on the Colorado River Indian Reservation at Parker, Ariz.

    Governor E.P. Carville of Nevada echoed the reception given the Northwestern Japanese colony proposal when he announced yesterday: ?gIf Japanese evacuees come into Nevada they will go into concentration camps.?h

  12. #27
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    Originally posted by Mekugi
    So, you don't believe it can happen, but yet it already has. The UK has done it before, but it will never do it again? Where do you base your feeling of "won't happen" from? Trying to use the arguement that "don't you trust your US government" won't work on me. I don't trust the US government- because of all the autrocities you have mentioned about my government- and the feeling that it could happen by the founding fathers of my Country. Getting the idea?
    Russ,

    Several posts there, i think this one has most of your points in, so will use this as a base for my replies.

    300 years ago slavery was socially acceptable. I don't beleive it will ever be again. Do you think all black people living in the USA and Europe should be preparing to resist being enslaved again?

    Do you have a feeling that your country will use nuclear weapons on civilians again? They have in the past. What help will your rifle be if the US government decides to make Japan glow in the dark again? Why are you even in Japan? You don't trust your government, and you know that they've nuked Japan before, so by your logic, they can do it again, which makes Japan a very dangerous place to be.

    I beleive that to a certain extent society learns from its mistakes, and slavery, nuclear war and dictatorship and not something the western world has to worry about in this day and age.

    The threat to modern society comes from terrorist organisations such as Al-Queda, and having guns in the World Trade Centre would of protected precicely 0% of the victims of the Sept. 11th disaster.
    Huw Larsen

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  13. #28
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    Originally posted by Iain
    Sure, guns might work as a last ditch effort to repel a weak despotic state, but firstly they are not going to work against any well established state repleat with a full suite of oppressive mechanisms, and secondly, there are a whole host of societal and material delimitors surrounding the emergence of a totalitarian state that are going to rob you of your ability to resist long before they finally get around to taking away your guns.
    You might tell that to the Afghan mujahideen about their long resistance against their Russian occupiers. The Russians, you might recall, were soundly beaten time and again by men and boys armed with 19th century weapons against "superior" Russian infantry and tanks, and were really only able to begin to make any significant headway by using helicopters and booby traps in a campaign that was nearly a form of genocide.

    Of course, the U.S supported the muhahideen, which is how we got Osama bin Laden in the first place....

    Interesting statment about the whole host of societal material delimitors....what exactly do you know about the current state of American domestic policy that leads you to believe we aren't seing those very factors now?
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

  14. #29
    Mekugi Guest

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    OK...let's lift laws against slavery then.

    You've got the idea of what happened on September 11th backwards.

    September 11th was an act of cowardice, not an attempt to take over the USA.

    Perhaps if there were firearms on those planes, it would have been avoided. There weren't any, because they were banned on airplanes...however the ones who did fight back against the box cutters (lets ban them shall we?) saved lives, even though it took their own. So ok, it's better to crash an airplane and all it's passengers to their death in a struggle rather than blow a hole in someone, because firearms are scary. Fabulous.

    First of all, the USA dropped atomic bombs on Japan aimed at MILITARY sites in Japan during the end of WWII (don't make me look this up for you). With the range of those puppies, are going to have civilian casualties. That's how big they are.

    Nuclear war is still a threat. Let me remind you of North Korea and Pakistan. Need I say any more?

    Dictatorships...well how many examples do you want? I could go on all night with this one.

    I do believe you haven't been keeping up with the current events of the world we live in, because these two points are very untrue.

    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Russ,

    Several posts there, i think this one has most of your points in, so will use this as a base for my replies.

    300 years ago slavery was socially acceptable. I don't beleive it will ever be again. Do you think all black people living in the USA and Europe should be preparing to resist being enslaved again?

    Do you have a feeling that your country will use nuclear weapons on civilians again? They have in the past. What help will your rifle be if the US government decides to make Japan glow in the dark again? Why are you even in Japan? You don't trust your government, and you know that they've nuked Japan before, so by your logic, they can do it again, which makes Japan a very dangerous place to be.

    I beleive that to a certain extent society learns from its mistakes, and slavery, nuclear war and dictatorship and not something the western world has to worry about in this day and age.

    The threat to modern society comes from terrorist organisations such as Al-Queda, and having guns in the World Trade Centre would of protected precicely 0% of the victims of the Sept. 11th disaster.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 5th February 2004 at 14:55.

  15. #30
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    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Russ,

    Several posts there, i think this one has most of your points in, so will use this as a base for my replies.

    300 years ago slavery was socially acceptable. I don't beleive it will ever be again. Do you think all black people living in the USA and Europe should be preparing to resist being enslaved again?

    Do you have a feeling that your country will use nuclear weapons on civilians again? They have in the past. What help will your rifle be if the US government decides to make Japan glow in the dark again? Why are you even in Japan? You don't trust your government, and you know that they've nuked Japan before, so by your logic, they can do it again, which makes Japan a very dangerous place to be.

    I beleive that to a certain extent society learns from its mistakes, and slavery, nuclear war and dictatorship and not something the western world has to worry about in this day and age.

    The threat to modern society comes from terrorist organisations such as Al-Queda, and having guns in the World Trade Centre would of protected precicely 0% of the victims of the Sept. 11th disaster.
    No, we won't make Japan glow(burn, actually-the idea that activated material glows from a nuclear detonation is a misconception-sand melts into glass, things burn, the shockwave obliterates, and massive amounts of prompt neutrons cause a variety of interesting effects like radiation sickness and "shadows" burned into concrete,but there is no "glow" unless the material that was activated was already some sort of emitter) but we are making preparations to make nuclear weapons that are meant to be used on someone.

    Slavery is socially acceptable in quite a few places, and a de facto form of it exists in one way or another around the world-including in the U.S., where many illegal immigrants are slaves. As far as blacks in the U.S. being prepared against being enslaved again,well, there are a few political theories that hold that some form of race war or class division in the U.S. is inevitable, but I tend to be a little more hopeful than that.

    Dictatorship, though,the U.S. may well be on the road to, with the same mind numbing compliance that accompanied Hitler's rise to power in Germany-no, I'm not comparing George Bush to Hitler;I'm comparing our populace to that in Germany between WWI an WWII, when people were only too happy to have someone "doing something," and many didn't realize what their country had gottene into until it was far too late.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

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