Draeger and CMA

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
I was not one of his inner circle of friends - just someone who knew him a little and admired him immeasurably.

Mr. Amdur,

If I may ask, who were his inner circle of friends?

[Ben Bartlett]

Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
Time permitting, I may post some more on Donn. I was not one of his inner circle of friends - just someone who knew him a little and admired him immeasurably.

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

I hope you do! I knew Draeger had a reputation as a great martial artist, and as being one of the first Westerners to look seriously into Eastern martial traditions (and of course, I have read some of his books), but, well, wow.

[Ellis Amdur]

Joshua -

I have studied Chen t'ai chi with Mrs. Gao Fu, one of Feng's most exemplary students, and have in MY circle of friends, some who are very close to Feng. The lovely story about Feng is this - Chen Fake and Hu Yaozhen were close friends, and they got to talking one day and mused what they could create if they found a very strong young man and gave him, together, all the knowledge they possessed. Feng was the young man they chose.

George -
I don't know all of Donn's circle, only some, because he had friends from different generations and different countries. I don't think it would be my place to start naming names - it is theirs to step forward in whatever way, and whatever venue they choose.

Best

Ellis Amdur

[Joshua Lerner]

Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
The lovely story about Feng is this - Chen Fake and Hu Yaozhen were close friends, and they got to talking one day and mused what they could create if they found a very strong young man and gave him, together, all the knowledge they possessed. Feng was the young man they chose.

Ellis,

It is a lovely story.

Take care,

Josh

[Joseph Svinth]

If you are truly in search of DD, then, as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught us, "Do your research."

Considerable work needs to be done in the area of documenting DD before 1954. For that, you'd probably need to be in Wisconsin, reading old newspapers and school yearbooks. Once that information is obtained, then you can start requesting military records and researching veterans' groups.

About 1953, DD got stationed in Washington, DC, where he became very active in promoting judo. He was occasionally mentioned in wire service stories in newspapers, some of which are available online, and he wrote a bunch of articles for "Strength and Health," which was the York Barbell Company rag in those days. York Barbell hasn't responded to two requests to reprint, but you can find back issues at libraries here and there; I believe the Todd-McLean Collection at UT Austin has the complete archives. See http://www.edb.utexas.edu/Todd-McLean/index.htm . DD also wrote regularly for "Judo Illustrated." I have some of the articles, and others are online. Library of Congress has at least one issue, but I don't know if all of them made it there. But there are a lot more; I just haven't seriously looked. There are also mentions in Black Belt, Judo Ontario publications, the Ishikawa/Foos publications, etc.

While reading, make lists of the the people he knew. Names that come to mind include RW Smith, Jon Bluming, Howard Alexander, Quintin Chambers, Mike Belzer, and Hunter Armstrong. Then read everything they published. More stories appear. Also read the writings of people with whom he was associated, such as Eiichi Koiwai

As you go along, do what Ellis noted, namely pay attention to generational differences -- they matter. Also keep track of everything, using either file cards or a chronological text file, to include when, where, and how you got this information. Footnote, in other words.

In the process, a story will emerge.

Then, after you've done the preliminary work listed here (I have not), you start writing people, asking for both new stories and external corroboration of previously published material.

***

BTW, according to the Portland Oregonian of Feb 13, 2004:

"Sumo wrestling, the national sport of Japan, is celebrated in high style and given its weighty justice at the Seattle Art Museum with a selection of prints and footage of modern tournaments. "Larger-Than-Life Heroes: Prints of Sumo Wrestling From the Donn F. Draeger Collection" gathers prints from the collection of this scholar and martial artist. Opens Saturday at the Seattle Art Museum."

Billy Bob says check it out.

[br_tengu]

Ellis Amdur wrote:

Donn, when collaborating with Smith, agreed on the turf in writing the Asian Martial Arts book, but Smith, in my opinion a rather defensive man who in some ways wished to be regarded as THE authority rather than merely a wonderful authority, was offended when Donn started publishing his own research.

I read the book and although I liked, I think that the Chinese part lacked some better social-historical perspective. I agree that Smith is sometimes too defensive in Martial Musings and in other articles, particularly when he tries to defend Ch’ing. On the other side I have to tell you that I think that your post was a little bit defensive too. Smith is very outspoken and although I think this is good, it also generates a lot of controversies and he sometimes issues opinions without proper research on the subject. I think that you are also very outspoken Mr. Amdur, and to tell you the truth this is one of the reasons why I like your books very much. Another reason is that you write about your our experiences in a very straightforward manner, putting yourself in the picture, exposing yourself in a way that requires some courage to do. This way of writing is very refreshing, because it makes the reading much more interesting, much more alive. There’s always the risk of becoming a little condescending when writing this way, but I think you were able to avoid this most of times pretty well.

I have personally met some t'ai chi practitioners (Feng Zhi Zhiang, - Chen style - for one) who left me awkstruck

I think most of us have already heard stories of such and such masters doing incredible things and in many cases the whole thing turned out to be just nonsense. I consider you a very down-to-earth person that has seen a lot and that wouldn’t be impressed easily. So, I wonder if you could share with us some stories of people that impressed you like Feng Zhi Zhiang and Ben Lo.


Sincerely,
reinaldo yamauchi

[Joshua Lerner]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
***BTW, according to the Portland Oregonian of Feb 13, 2004:

"Sumo wrestling, the national sport of Japan, is celebrated in high style and given its weighty justice at the Seattle Art Museum with a selection of prints and footage of modern tournaments. "Larger-Than-Life Heroes: Prints of Sumo Wrestling From the Donn F. Draeger Collection" gathers prints from the collection of this scholar and martial artist. Opens Saturday at the Seattle Art Museum."
Billy Bob says check it out.

Anyone interested in a Sunday field trip in March? I'll start a thread in the member's lounge.

[Ellis Amdur]

Mr. Yamauchi - As for what left me awkstruck, I'm not talking about magic. Simply wonderful body mechanics. I visited Ben Lo's school shortly before I left for Japan. He was doing t'ai chi and lowered his body so that his hips were below knee-level, his shins vertical and he had me feel his calves which were absolutely relaxed. From there, he continued to move with fluidity. He maintained the same fluidity in his push-hands.

As for Feng, what left me awkstruck was his massive power (he is a giant of a man, not in height so much as thickness) - a bull of a man, which bushy eyebrows, a deep laugh, hands big enough to encompass a head and he could move so gracefully, and so fast. Grizzly bear t'ai chi with sudden explosions of power with no wind-up.

I've never seen any empty force, any chi projection, any invulnerable bodies. Just wonderful physical organization.

I can't remember the author, but he wrote two very charming little books about Cheng Man Ching. In one of them, he describes Ching, then living in NY announcing that he'd taken up bowling for a few weeks, but quit because he found even the smallest ball too heavy for him. His students were momentarily astonished, because he was able to throw/project them, many well over 200 pounds flying thru the air to crash into the wall. As I recall the story, Ching laughed, saying something to the effect that he isn't lifting anything with his students - he just helps them throw themselves, but a bowling ball - that's just heavy.

Ellis Amdur

[Cady Goldfield]

I recall reading that delightful story about Ching. That tale pretty much encapsulates what "it's" all about.

Many years ago, I met a Chinese practitioner of an old taiji tradition. He was a small man, wiry but not bulky. With a touch he was able to throw men twice his weight across the kwoon (dojo). I thought it was a parlor trick until he did it to me, too. It wasn't until I found my current martial discipline that I saw this duplicated and learned to do it myself. Certainly not as masterfully, but well enough to recognize it for what it is and what it can do.

Yes, it is not magic, but perfectly aligned body mechanics, as Ellis says. Doing it well just makes it look - and feel - like magic. But then, so does anything done well.

[Jack B]

Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
I can't remember the author, but he wrote two very charming little books about Cheng Man Ching. In one of them, he describes Ching, then living in NY announcing that he'd taken up bowling for a few weeks, but quit because he found even the smallest ball too heavy for him. His students were momentarily astonished, because he was able to throw/project them, many well over 200 pounds flying thru the air to crash into the wall. As I recall the story, Ching laughed, saying something to the effect that he isn't lifting anything with his students - he just helps them throw themselves, but a bowling ball - that's just heavy.

Would that be Wolfe Lowenthal's There Are No Secrets and Gateway to the Miraculous?

[br_tengu]

Jack Bieler wrote:

Would that be Wolfe Lowenthal's There Are No Secrets and Gateway to the Miraculous?

That's the author, the brief mention to bowling is in There Are No Secrets.


And thanks for answering my question Ellis. Maybe you should think about writing a book about all those interesting people you met in your martial arts journey. I'm sure you must have lots of stories and anecdotes to tell.


Sincerely,
reinaldo yamauchi

[Finny]

Amen - I love hearing these sorts of tales... particularly from someone who tells it like it is.

[Michael Becker]

I never could quite understand R.W. Smith's devotion to Cheng Manching. In an interview with Nigel Sutton some years back, a senior disciple of Cheng's, Tan Ching Ngee, stated Cheng never taught the advnaced aspects of his art to non-Chinese. Certainly Cheng's most advanced students dont seem to emphasis the 'soft' approach as much as Smith, or other western students of his generaltion, do.

The fundamental key to making the so called 'internal' arts of ba gua, hsing i and tai chi chuan work is the practice of neikung. This consists of exercises that are static, like the aforementioned standing practices, but also moving methods as well. Some of the moving exercises also have fighting applications.

Unlike many of the popular chi kung routines, a regimen of neikung exercises is not at all easy to perform. The legs in particular are worked very hard. Some of the end results are as follows.

A highly developed sense of co-ordination, much as you would expect from thousands of repetitions of movements using full body motion. An ability to issue strikes or pushes with little or no 'wind-up'. The ability to take strikes to the body without injury, including having someone drop from 6 feet onto the abdomen.

At a basic level, neikung training is physical conditioning, but of a specialised and sophisticated nature. Anyone who claims to practice a fighting art understands how important physical conditioning is. There is also a theraputic aspect to some of the exercises, and they can help certain injuries and illnesses.

I wont get into 'chi' here, since it has already been discussed to death elsewhere. People can make up their own minds. Myself I have experienced enough not to have any doubts and will say no more on the matter.

The 'power of the soft'? . Putting it simply, the 'soft' is the evasion or redirection aspect of the art. Tai chi chuan has a variety of striking, throwing, grappling and locking techniques that are anything but soft. Many of them are vicious and nasty and designed to kill, maim or at the least quickly incapacitate an attacker.

Another myth spread by some tai chi chuan instructors is the idea that it takes at least 10 years to gain any functional ability in the art, (mastery is of course an entirely different matter). As an example, I once spent five minutes instructing a former work collegue on the method and principle behind one of the fighting applications of tai chi chuan. That was it. A week later he came back to me with a big grin on his face. Someone had attacked him outside of a pub and he had knocked them over a bench with the technique. Not bad for someone maybe 5'4'' and 140 pounds. One of my teachers, Dan Docherty, won a prestigious full contact tournament in Asia after training for six years in tai chi chuan.

Anyway, I'm going on and on here and that wasnt the purpose of the thread. I'd like to recommend two books on tai chi chuan that contain some 'meat' instead of the usual fluffy verbage.

The first is 'Complete Tai Chi Chuan' by the aforementioned Dan Docherty, ISBN 1-86126-033-4 . This one offers the best overview of the art I have seen in the English language. The information is clear and instructive and not laden with vague or mystical references.

Dan is the man who taught me the little I know of tai chi chuan. In 1980 he won the Open Weight division at the 5th South East Asian Chinese Pugilistic Championship in Malaysia. He also served for 9 years in the Royal Hong Kong Police where he had the opportunity to apply the practical aspect of the art.

His website is www.taichichuan.co.uk and is well worth a look if only to read through his articles that have been published over the years in various magazines. He is fluent in Cantonese and Manderin and also reads the language, which gives him a rare insight into the art and the culture surrounding it.

As an intresting aside, R.W. Smith was once so incensed by an interview that Dan gave for 'Fighting Arts International' that he insisted the publisher remove his name from the list of contributors. There is a review of 'Martial Musings' by Dan on his site, along with the offending article, ('Tai Chi Gladiator').

BTW, Dan's only art is tai chi chuan and it is the only martial art he has practiced since 1974.

The second book is 'Wu Style Taijiquan' by Wang Peisheng and Zeng Weiqi, ISBN 962-238-015-8. It depicts realistic-and accurate-fighting applications from the Wu style. Amazon.com lists this book as being unavailable but they are wrong, since it can be found with a little looking around. I saw it for sale in Foyles in London recently, and there are a couple of places on the internet that sell it.

Wang is possibly the foremost living authority on Wu style tai chi chuan. He has established himself as a fighter and teacher, though he is now over 85 years of age. Wang's teacher, Yang Yuting, was the instructor to the last Emperor of China. Yang's teacher, Wang Maozhai was the senior disciple of Quan You, the founder of Wu style tai chi chuan. Yang was his senior disciple, and Wang Peisheng was, and is, Yang's senior disciple.

Wang also studied several other arts and also teaches them, including ba gua, hsing i and tong bei. The website of his American students is http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/YCGF.htm .

For anyone looking for an in depth interview regarding ba gua and the role of neikung in its training, see

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

Apologies for going on as much. I hope there is some information of intrest here. Off to bed now as I have work in 6 hours...

[nicojo]

Ellis Amdur wrote:

Donn and I continued, him saying that he had upmost respect for Bagua and Hsing i as wonderful "civilian fighting arts." He said that hsing i fighters were the only ones who were generally successful in the full-contact, limited rules fights in East Asia (Incidentally, he confined the word "martial" for fighting arts that were created and functioned on the battlefield. Used to make people froth at the mouth when he'd say, "aikido-karate-judo-wu shu . . . is not a martial art, it's a civilian fighting art.

The more I have been thinking about this distinction, "civilian fighting arts," the more I have come to appreciate it in the last few weeks since I started the thread. Initially I was a bit wary because I feel that sometimes we jump at the chance to use certain distinctions unecessarily such as gendai/koryu, internal/external, iaido/iaijutsu, to name a few I've been tumbled into. This isn't to say these distinctions are purely western, purely modern, purely unhelpful or purely anything; it is to say that for me these have drawn more of my focus to the word or concept instead of the training...

But Draeger's distinction of "civilian fighting arts" works for me right now, in part because it resonates with something Dave Lowry wrote in Traditions that I read just a week ago:

Remember that bu refers not specifically to "combat" or "fighting but to that which is related to the military or martial caste of old Japan. Okinawan karate was never an art of the warrior class. It was a method of fighting practicied by Ryukyuans, most of them farmers or fishermen. It is, in origin and intent, a civilian method of self-defense...To affix the connotation of "civil" rather than "military" (or "martial") to an art like karate is not a comment on the effectiveness or value of karate. Most of the combative arts of mainland China, kungfu, tai chi cuan, and the like are, as well, civilian in their origins. Recognizing that karate is an art used by non-military people does not discredit it at all. It merely places karate in its proper perspective as a fighting art.

p.58

Certainly for the majority of you this is obvious, olde newse, and perhaps not worth the time to read a page of my own personal thoughts, but...maybe it interests someone else.

Certain of these distinctions are useful for the practitioner, some are more useful for the academic, but it is nice to cross a few converging paths like this. But you already knew that

Later,

[Joseph Svinth]

All unarmed martial arts are essentially civil in nature, as soldiers and robbers operate under their own rules of engagement, and almost always have access to weapons. Most armed martial arts are essentially civil, too, at least as practiced today. That is, they may have been battlefield arts in 1640 (or 1940), but today, they are essentially recreation. Practitioners take offense at this observation, however, because in their Walter Mitty fantasies, they envision themselves the world's deadliest fighting men rather than middle-aged fat men with a hobby.

For an introduction to the topic, talk to the wives of said deadly fighting men, or read "Some Motivations Involved in Martial Arts Training" at http://ejmas.com/svinth1.htm ; "Social Uses of the Martial Arts," in _Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia_ (ABC-CLIO, 2001) 2:532-538, and my essay, "Where We Go From Here" in _Martial Arts in the Modern World_ (Greenwood, 2003), 271-274.