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Thread: Introduction

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    Default Introduction

    About the Moderator

    Scott Rogers specialization is in kyusho jutsu pressure point concepts. He runs a website at www.realpressurepoints.com . Although Scott has received a masters certificate from George Dillman, he recently left his organization to pursue what he feels is the realistic aspects of pressure points in martial arts and self defense. He is an author of a monthly column for taekwondo times on pressure points, and has have a 7 tape video series with Panther.

    Scott has also studied many other martial arts from brazilian jujutsu to boxing and taekwondo. Some of the teachers he has studied under include Suh Chong Kang, George A. Dillman, Masaaki Hatsumi, Wally Jay and Remy Presas.

    The scope of this forum will be to discuss any questions you may have on the use of pressure points in martial arts, specifically in self defense situations
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  2. #2
    Scott Rogers Guest

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    Many people have a very negative view on pressure points. I feel that this is due not to their effectiveness but to the manner in which they are applied. If you are a poor martial artist with no real knowledge of self defense, pressure points will not make you any better. When I teach pressure point techniques, I make sure that it is an effective technique even if the person misses all of the points they are aiming at. In short kyushojutsu or pressure points should complement your chosen style, not replace it or alter its content.

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    Default putting what you know to use

    Most people expect the Vulcan death grip, or some kind of magic spot that will effectively give them the magic touch, but as we know, it is as much science as it is skill while applying what you know with the addition of pressure points.

    I have done aikido for about seven years now, with five years of kempo karate/ wally jay jujitsu, and the more I look around in other arts, the more pressure points become the staple of the advanced practitioner.

    The other thing that people forget, at least those who are either beginners or not practised in pressure points, is that pressure points are the assistant to techniques, not the whole technique. The addition of emotional projection, let alone creating conditions that let the human body accept the signals to pressure points, must be included in the technique or the results are poor to no results at all. So, it is possible to neutralize pressure points if you understand how and why they work, but to resist with only partial knowledge is just asking for trouble, as much as applying them without researching the healing techniques is asking for trouble also.

    This is just my opionion, but after watching the demonstrations and the healing/ recovery needed for not just the volunteer but the person applying the technique, I still have great concern for the health of the people who are using pressure points causing damage to themselves or the bodies of others.

    Yeah, it is a dangerous practice if one is not aware of the dangers, but then again, what in life is not dangerous is one is not careful to avoid dangers or learn to heal oneself when injured?

  4. #4
    Jim Perkins Guest

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    Hello I am new to e-budo I have seen this topic attempted on other forums and it is a difficult topic to discus. There is so much more to this topic than just attacking pressure points for self defense I hope to see some good communications here. I have studied Okinawa and Chinese martial arts for a long time but I am still just a student and still learning.

  5. #5
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Probably every atemi point has a "pressure point" associated with it.
    It is much more practical, and better tactics, to strike these points with force and rely upon hydrostatic shock or crushing force than it is to try to apply "pressure" as in Dillman's (and others') antics. Wrist locks, arm bars, chokes all rely upon certain pressure points, but they use them differently than most of the "kyusho" folks do. I have not been impressed with the kyusho folks who demonstrate pressure points as a primary means of attack. Most of it appears staged, and I do not believe such tactics are a good choice for self defense. Everyone should know the major ones, but striking and choking are better weapons. For those who defend the effectiveness of such stuff, why don't the kyusho guys prove themselves in NHB or BJJ fights? If it is such magic, it ought to put Royce or Rickson away easily. Hell, go try it in a good Goju or Shito ryu dojo...ought to put every one down with ease. How about a judo dojo...shoot, magic like kyusho in the hands of a Dillman ought to have those judo roughnecks beggin' for mercy

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    Default I believe a rethink in in order.

    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    Probably every atemi point has a "pressure point" associated with it.
    It is much more practical, and better tactics, to strike these points with force and rely upon hydrostatic shock or crushing force than it is to try to apply "pressure" as in Dillman's (and others') antics. Wrist locks, arm bars, chokes all rely upon certain pressure points, but they use them differently than most of the "kyusho" folks do. I have not been impressed with the kyusho folks who demonstrate pressure points as a primary means of attack. Most of it appears staged, and I do not believe such tactics are a good choice for self defense. Everyone should know the major ones, but striking and choking are better weapons. For those who defend the effectiveness of such stuff, why don't the kyusho guys prove themselves in NHB or BJJ fights? If it is such magic, it ought to put Royce or Rickson away easily. Hell, go try it in a good Goju or Shito ryu dojo...ought to put every one down with ease. How about a judo dojo...shoot, magic like kyusho in the hands of a Dillman ought to have those judo roughnecks beggin' for mercy
    Oh I don't know about that?

    Most of what is used by kyusho jitsu is not allowed in practice or the teacher tells the practitioner to practice their way.

    If you check with the Gracie's, they have been in touch with Wally Jay and his style of jujitsu which is not all rock'em sock'em, but it sure seems to work when the proper conditions are induced ... and this two by four to the body is not the the trauma induced way to think. My God! Are you still talking in the stone-age terms of clubing a human being into submission?

    Well, consider the conditions that make Kyusho jitsu work, and alter those conditions to change the effectiveness of that style, but then ... you can do that for nearly anystyle of martial arts, right? Change the conditons for the technique and have it ... not work?

    I believe you need to rethink your response Gene.

    Good, bad, or indifferent to George Dillman, or Kyusho Jitsu, one needs to keep things in their proper light. Dillman is interpreting the note of his teacher which are methods to kill people, not to disable them or knock them out. I surely don't see any attacks on Hohan Soken? Why? Because he used what worked.

    We all modify the techniques so that there is a wide margin of safety and they disable or cause conditions that are conducive to incapacitate our attacker, but that doesn't mean they will work every single time ... especially if someone is able to change enough of the conditions so they are not effective techniques.

    The fact is, if I use aikido against a grappler, I am not gonna be gentle, and the grappler or myself is gonna be injured. That would go over big with the teacher ... NOT!

    Yeah, a rethink for your reply is in order.
    bruce baker

  7. #7
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Bruce, did you just say something?

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    From my limited exposure, I can say that "pressure points" seems to be a generic term relating to accupressure / accupuncture points or nodes. But from jiujitsu & chin-na, I know that some of the points are points of connection between muscle & tendon, sensitive points on the throat or space between or within a muscle(s). Not all are along the mystical meridians. By implying this & faking the "knock-outs" (as I've seen in several videos - you know, the victim instinctively putting his hand out to prevent a painful fall), so-called pressure point fall into the arena of Bad Budo or Baffeling Budo. Weak points, vulnerable points...OK, but lets stop mystifying a basic principle of physics and physiology.
    Ed Smith
    Shito-ryu Shukokai USA

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    I'm rather fond of pressure points, but I view them sort of like whipped cream. It's great, but only on good ice cream. Similarly, pressure points work great when applied with a good technique. The way I use them, you have to break the body down first. It's pretty easy to strike a pressure point on the arm, for instance, if the arm is relaxed. So how to use this? Simple, you get the arm in a position where the muscles can't fully engage, and then go for the pressure point. Same with a grab. I can work my way past pain, and can tense muscles to armor myself against a blow or a pressure point attack. So can any opponent. Ergo, the way to get these to work is to prevent the body from tensing against them.
    Now, as to their use, I think that they're useful in very specific situations. If someone's attacking me and I have a limited time to deal with him before I need to beat feet, I probably won't use them except maybe to strike at them. I can get better mileage from hitting him, grabbing his legs, and going alley-oop so he hits his head (French savate man did exactly this to a British bare-knuckles guy, I think around the turn of the century).
    Grabbing for pressure points is only useful for me during situations where I don't want to or have to seriously injure my opponent, and I have the time to exert control over him. It's great if I manage to stun him with a punch, for example, because then I can take him down using non-injurious, if painful, methods. The stun relaxes him a bit, and gives me a sec to get a good target. However, if he's on drugs, drunk, or otherwise immunized against pain, I'm going to have to seriously hurt him and pressure points are useless.

    (My teacher once ran into this last, a rather overweight boss of his once ran after two men in the pizzeria parking lot with a bat in order to chase them away. Unfortunately, they were weight-lifters, steroid-heads, raging, drunk, and on cocaine or some other drug. My teacher managed to get the bat away before they killed his boss, but they were ignoring every blow he could land, even to the groin, they were massive, and the only way he thought he could get their attention was to crush their tracheas. He got his hands on one, but wasn't really prepared to kill them, and that's what crushing the trachea would have amounted to. His friend survived, since the weapon was gone, and the cops got to deal with the berserkers, which they did by piling on, breaking their elbows so they could cuff them, and then breaking their knees when they tried to kick the squad cars apart. I can't imagine what they felt like the next morning...)
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  10. #10
    Troll Basher Guest

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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    ………. For those who defend the effectiveness of such stuff, why don't the kyusho guys prove themselves in NHB or BJJ fights? If it is such magic, it ought to put Royce or Rickson away easily. Hell, go try it in a good Goju or Shito ryu dojo.. ought to put every one down with ease. How about a judo dojo...shoot, magic like kyusho in the hands of a Dillman ought to have those judo roughnecks beggin' for mercy
    I always love that sort of logic.
    So by using your logic if you go into a NHB match or another dojo and lose in a fight against someone then your art is just as ineffective as well????

    It’s more of the fighter and not the art…..

  11. #11
    jason sagaci Guest

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    This is my first post, so hello everyone.
    I have studied the points as applied in Hapkido ( Korean Aiki-Jutsu). I know what people are thinking, but I have left all that behind for Koryu. Anyway, they do work. The trouble is it is very unpredictable. One Tsubo that has one person hopping like they were stung by a bee, may only make another person smile. Then you are in trouble. Going back to their origins in medicine, sensitivity in the tsubo waxes and wanes according to health and injury in the areas of the body from which those nerves connect. People have differing constitutions, and to rely on Tsubo as an attack method is really risky. I myself had the unfortunate experience of kicking an addled attacker in the jewels to no effect.
    Tsubo work well to get out of holds, chokes, dirty fighting close in where there is no room for strikes.
    Itis NOT a 'Miracle Weapon'.

    thanks, Jason Sagaci

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    One of the little problems with it, yes. Some people are immune to some of them.
    Also, the more muscular the target, the less likely pressure points are to work, simply because muscle's so good a shield. The muscles HAVE to be relaxed, even for a fraction, to make pressure points work. That said, if you can get one on right, you can really zonk someone, and they're great as add-ins. If someone's feeling great pain due to a pressure point, while also being worn down by other means, they'll succumb much faster. I should note that I've seen tickling used in just this fashion, and it's probably got a similar success rate.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Pity e-budo went down when it did. I was looking forward to an interesting discussion.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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    Default Irish descent affecting some of the points?

    Many years ago when studying Aikido there was a certain "pressure point" around the armpit area...one of my friends at the time is 100% Irish, and the pressure point wouldn't work on him at all but would on the rest of us. The instructor asked my friend if he was Irish and than went on to say that Irish people are missing this "pressure point"? I'm not sure how true this is, but will always remember the pain everyone else but my friend were in.
    Brian Culpepper

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    There's one gripping point on the back that causes my friends great pain, and they hate the fact that it doesn't work on me. My girlfriend doesn't seem to feel some of the elbow pressure points, either.
    That's why I feel that they're like whipped cream and a cherry. You'd better have good ice cream under it, or it's kinda pointless.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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