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Thread: Introduction

  1. #16
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    Default An ummm, [I]Interesting[/I] story about pressure points

    One guy my teacher met a long time ago claimed to have met a ninja in the woods while high, and so impressed the ninja (by being stoned enough to see him, apparently) that the ninja taught him a "secret pressure point attack." Said attack consisted of going into Okinawan/reverse backstance with the hand towards your opponent as in Chinto kata, if you are familiar with that. You hold your attacking hand pinky up, thumb down and insert pinky into the opponent's navel. If you do it correctly, they fall down in convulsions with vomiting. My teacher asked for a demonstration and was told, "Oh, no, I can't do that, I'd cause you to fall down convulsing and vomiting!" My teacher responded, "No, no, please do this, I want to see it demonstrated!" The guy wouldn't. Later found out that he was a TKD student with very little experience.

    Now, if this is the common pressure point experience, I can understand why it's got a bad rap. My own experience, and my teacher's, is considerably more practical, and I find kyusho jutsu quite useful in certain specific ways. So, has anyone else run into similar ridiculousness?
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  2. #17
    petreliu Guest

    Default how to estimate the effectiveness of kyusho tecniques ?

    When martial artist starts to question wheter this or that technique work or not he has reached a very important level in thinking.I think we should never underestimate our intuitive feeling about usefulness of techniques. This is important for many reasons: First, techniques of martial arts are not tested in a similar manner than they used to be in feodal times. false or weak technique used in a combat resulted severe injury or death. this is a reason why so many people get confused about the importance of single kyusho te

  3. #18
    petreliu Guest

    Default how important are kyusho techniques ?

    When martial artist starts to question wheter this or that technique work or not he has reached a very important level in thinking.I think we should never underestimate our intuitive feeling about the usefulness any technique. This is important for many reasons: First, techniques of martial arts are not tested in a similar manner than they used to be in feodal times. At those days false or weak technique used in a combat resulted severe injury or death. This is the reason (at least I think so )why so many people get confused about the importance of single techniques. It is simply because people do not have to fight for their survival every day! I`m not saying that every martial artist should seek for streetfights to test their skills but thats obviously what is missing nowadays. I´d estimate that 99,9 percent of all martal artists never end up in a real fight where their skills would be tested. What i am trying to say here is, that because we do not have to fight every day we are in great danger to loose the sense of reality. We should never underestimate our intuitive feeling about what really works. And this general confusion prevents us to see the whole picture of martial way. Moreover, this ignornace of the beginners is used by greed people who sell magic tricks to people who are confused. I think that kyusho techniques have been detached from their original context and emphasized in way that gives a wrong image about the importance of pressure-points. I think that we should not start our martial way with the delegate pressure point but instead focus on basic training which includes all aspects of fighting. And I think martial arts should not be understood as a bunch of tricks learned over weekend-camp. Because martial techniques are not tested anymore like they used to be, we should firstly rely in our conception and feeling about the usefulness of the technique. I saw a video in pressure point fighting where this well known master did toe locks to his opponent. As he talked I started to wonder that what would be the likelyhood of ending in asituation like that. master was on his knees in front of the opponent. opponent could have easily made a lethal kick whit a knee ! In situation like that I would never try to reach my opponent´s toes, especially when he wears shoes, like most do! Wouldn`t it be less dangerous to teach how to protect your head in a situation like that? or learn how to strike groins ? anything else than twisting toes!!!!

    In the end part of that video he did a no touch knock-out from the distance. ....and people were amazed! then I realized that almost anything can be sold to the people who have lost the sense of reality. This video was very important because it put me on the right track again.....

    Instead of being secret as it has been claimed in present literature, i think that old grand masters realized the true value of the pressure points and thats why kyusho applications were never over-emphasized as they seem to be now among some modern masters.

  4. #19
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    Default Kyusho vs. Tsubo

    The Araki-ryu has some instruction of kyusho in it's records, but it was not emphasized in the line I've studied. You picked up some in the kata, but it wasn't points to be struck or pressed - it was the best point to apply leverage, for example, for a pin or lock.

    That said, regarding the more classic ideas on kyusho, my instructor stated that the whole concept had been contaminated by the inclusion of tsubo from acupuncture and shiatsu - and that this was not a new phenomenom. Tsubo are healing points, although they can hurt if one applies force or pressure. However, when one is being treated, one's body is relaxed. Just recall the last shiatsu session where you tensed up. The practitioner would tell you to relax -and it hurts more. My instructor's point was that in a fight, one is both adrenalized and tense, particularly when you feel the other person trying to hurt you. He noted that in "dojo bujutsu," - which he meant, in this case, schools that do not practice realistically, and essentially, train the students to be passive and responsive to the teacher (resulting, I suppose, in knockouts at a distance), they are also passive when the teacher applies pressure to a tsubo.

    A proper kyusho, however, is going to hurt (and/or be injurious) whether you tense your muscles or not. Crude examples would be trachea, groin, temple and eyes. There are others in the scrolls, but I don't know if they are effective.

    Best

  5. #20
    Finny Guest

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    Mr. Amdur,

    I remember you telling a story in a thread a long time ago about a martial artist you met in Japan who was somewhat expert at applying kyusho.

    I can't remember the specifics, but it somewhat altered my (cynical) view of kyusho - anything you can tell us about that experience?

    PS - 'Old School' has to be one of my favourite books of all time (I've been meaning to buy 'Duelling with O-Sensei', despite having little interest in Aikido) - thanks for producing them and any chance of another book in the works?

    Regards,

    Brendan
    Last edited by Finny; 7th August 2005 at 12:53.

  6. #21
    Finny Guest

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    Oh and BTW,

    Proof that not even the most blatantly injurious kyusho are foolproof:

    http://www.bravo.co.uk/travelsick2/m...nge_clip2.html

    Yip Chee Gung of Chow Ga Tong Long Pai (Southern Mantis) 'taking one for the team' in the name of MA research.

    Apparently Wang Shu Jin was also renowned for his ability to retract his testes into his abdomen.

  7. #22
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    Brendan -

    I honestly don't recall the story you mean. I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka. A very sturdy man - five feet, eight inches, and one hundred eighty pounds - all muscle. We were drinking a few beers at his house, and I decided to f** with him (he was my friend, after all) and try something out at the same time. (Actually, we'd had quite a few beers.) I turned to him and said, "You know, thanks to my studies in koryu, judo appears to me to be mere kid's stuff, easily defeated."
    Y - "You shouldn't kid around like that, Ellis."
    E - "No, I mean it. I'm now completely invulnerable to being choked out."
    Y - "You may think that's funny, but you shouldn't say things like that! Some people could take it seriously and get pissed off."
    E -"Oh, you don't think I'm serious then. Go ahead and try to choke me, then." My friend had a hot temper, so we were good to go. To make it even easier for him, I put on my kiekko gi top, lay on my back, and he put on a cross-collar choke. "Go ahead," I said. "Sorry to hurt your feelings like this, but you should know the deficiencies of what you were studying all these years."
    He cinched on the choke and just as it was tightening, I took my knuckles and simultaneously pressed with all my might at the bottom of his floating ribs. (Note: The man was an expert, doing what he did best. He was relaxed. And drunk. Relaxed even more.) He shot completely over my head, and I shrugged his hands off my collar.
    The man was devastated. He sat there with his head in his hands, saying, "I don't believe it. You've destroyed my life. So this is kyushojutsu! My judo is nothing." (We were very drunk, actually).
    I had another beer, and had mercy on him. And I wanted to see if what my teacher (mentioned in the last post) was telling me the truth about kyusho and tsubo. I said, "Wanna try again."
    "What would be the point?" he said. He was really hurting. If this had been a couple hundred of years ago, he would have had to give me his dojo. I would have let him sleep in the back yard with the maid. . . .wait a minute. That's not so bad! Anyway, to continue.
    E- "O.K. Listen. Listen to me, brother! This is important! Imagine you don't know me. You know that statue of your father downstairs? You don't know me and I came into your house and broke it. Your dead dad's statue in pieces all over the floor. Then I laughed at your mother when she saw it and began crying. Then I molested your sister! I did! Imagining all that? Good. Now, c'mon. Choke me now. Choke me now!" Remember the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, where there is a bull in a field, and he turns color and smoke comes out of his nose and ears. Y was sort of like that - anyway, something was coming out of his nose at that point - and he got the "mount" and cinched on the choke. HARD. I used my knuckles again. It was like pushing into corregated steel. I started to go out, and I thought, "What the f***. Let's take it all the way." I spread my arms wide, and hit him with my knuckles right in the floating rib points as hard as I possible could. Once. Twice.
    Fade to black. When I awoke, Y was pouring himself a beer with a relieved look on his face. "Thanks, Ellis. I was worried there for a second."
    E - "Was I out a long time?"
    Y - "Oh, no, not that. I mean, I was worried about my judo."

    P.S. As for writing, I might have something in the works in a few years, but it's too soon to be gabbing about. BTW - yeah, you should buy Dueling. It's not really about aikido anyway. It's deep thoughts that will make you really soulful, so that women will flock to you.

    Best

  8. #23
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    Default I think it was about a fishmonger...

    Mr. Amdur,

    I *think* Mr. Finn is talking about a story you related in a post online a while back. You wrote about approaching a gentleman in Tokyo, a fishmonger by trade, who was the last surviving practitioner of an art that emphasized kyushojutsu. You approached him, if I remember correctly, to learn something of his art...only you made the mistake of doing so in a respectful manner. I don't remember if he was put off, or just suffering social vertigo because of your approach, but he declined the offer (again, if I remember correctly).
    I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember you briefly describing some of his conditioning exercises, and that he had a grip like a steel spring. And it hurt.

    I don't know if that's the story Mr. Finn meant, but if you remember it, I for one would love to hear your thoughts on it in light of the thread.

    Respectfully,
    Murray McPherson

  9. #24
    Finny Guest

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    That's the one, Mr. McPherson.

    The demonstration I remember involved him digging his thumb into somewhere on your ribs (?) - Resulting in some serious discomfort on your part, Mr. Amdur - If my memory serves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur
    BTW - yeah, you should buy Dueling. It's not really about aikido anyway. It's deep thoughts that will make you really soulful, so that women will flock to you.
    LMAO - That's a great pitch you've got there Mr. Amdur. I read the exerpt on Aikidojournal.com - really beautifully written - I'll be sure to get a copy. Unfortunately I'm a broke and exceedingly lazy undergrad student, so you can imagine how long it'll take me - not sure the girlfriend will appreciate the 'women flocking' part, but I'm sure I'll make do .

    On the subject of future writings, I hope you follow it up - I'll be looking forward to it (whatever it may be).
    Last edited by Finny; 7th August 2005 at 19:47.

  10. #25
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    Default Kasumi Shin-ryu

    I'd be very surprised if the guy (he'd be pissed if I called him a gentleman) is still alive. Kasumi Shin-ryu was an offshoot of Araki-ryu, developed by the most important second generation Araki-ryu shihan - Mori Kasumi - (who, I believe, was really the one who consolidated the ryu). He must have been quite a guy to have enough "material" to develop another school. It reportedly had kenjutsu, naginata, kamayari among it's weapons, and jujutsu. Serge Mol refers to it - incorrectly, I believe - as Kashin-ryu.

    What the old guy told me was that Kasumi Shin-ryu was a "keidomyaku" bujutsu, which means an "artery" martial practice. He said that one attacked the junctures of the arteries - however, I don't know if he was referring to anatomically accurate points in the circulatory system or to kyusho from an Oriental perspective.

    He accurately grabbed me sort of behind the collarbone, and also seemed to lift my ribs apart to get at what was underneath. Hurt a lot.

    He told me that his instructor was a butcher and that he used to hang up sides of beef and practice thrusting his fingers through the muscle fibers.

    My acquaintance, who was briefly in Araki-ryu and was my senior by a generation in Buko-ryu as well. He had menjo in Sugino's KSR, and also in Watanabe (the elder's) Yagyu Shinkage-ryu.

    He would never teach anyone - his social caste as a fishmonger was, in his mind, too low. He had a kind of perverse humble pride. So, as the previous story went, by treating him a teacher (bushi), he recoiled. Had I treated him like a guy who spent his days in fish guts, I might have got something from him.

  11. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur
    Brendan -

    I honestly don't recall the story you mean. I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka.
    I do not mean this in a manner to challenge your expertise (let alone the power of your kyusho techniques or judo choke), but what point are you illustrating through this story?

    Are you saying that the kyusho are themselves fundamentally ineffective? Or are you saying that the use of kyusho alone is not nearly a guarantee of escape from a dangerously tactically inferior position?

  12. #27
    Finny Guest

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    I believe Mr. Amdur is using the story to illustrate the position he (and his teacher) have taken regarding kyusho:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur
    That said, regarding the more classic ideas on kyusho, my instructor stated that the whole concept had been contaminated by the inclusion of tsubo from acupuncture and shiatsu - and that this was not a new phenomenom. Tsubo are healing points, although they can hurt if one applies force or pressure. However, when one is being treated, one's body is relaxed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur
    My instructor's point was that in a fight, one is both adrenalized and tense, particularly when you feel the other person trying to hurt you. He noted that in "dojo bujutsu," - which he meant, in this case, schools that do not practice realistically, and essentially, train the students to be passive and responsive to the teacher (resulting, I suppose, in knockouts at a distance), they are also passive when the teacher applies pressure to a tsubo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur
    A proper kyusho, however, is going to hurt (and/or be injurious) whether you tense your muscles or not.
    The story simply illustrates Mr. Amdur's point that tsubo can be very painful and effective if one's opponent is relaxed, but can also be completely ineffective if the opponent is tense and adrenaline-charged.

  13. #28
    shemp Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Rogers
    Many people have a very negative view on pressure points. I feel that this is due not to their effectiveness but to the manner in which they are applied. If you are a poor martial artist with no real knowledge of self defense, pressure points will not make you any better. When I teach pressure point techniques, I make sure that it is an effective technique even if the person misses all of the points they are aiming at. In short kyushojutsu or pressure points should complement your chosen style, not replace it or alter its content.
    Kyushu is a part of waza . ' apart of bunki like throwing punching kicking strangling blocking aiki , its all there . Kyushu is just the targets you strive to hit to get maximum effect and shorten the conflict .
    its not magick its anatomy . ya some don't believe in it but some don't believe in kata . thats there short comings .

  14. #29
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    Kyusho work on people who are tensed up as well but most of us lack the kind of conditioning to make it work on anyone other than a relaxed opponent. In a certain school of ninpo tearing the bark off of trees was used in old times to condition the fingertips and imrpove gripping strength. Nowadays we have those little horseshoe shaped workout machines to increase forearm and grip strength.

    A man with very large tensed muscles can still be hurt by kyushojutsu if you have the hand strength to reach the pressure point in the first place.

    A study or familiarisation of gyokko ryuu kosshijutsu might be worthwhile to anyone interested in kyushojutsu.
    Last edited by paradoxbox; 18th October 2005 at 19:28. Reason: spelling
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

  15. #30
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    No matter how strong you are, sometimes they still will not work. A. Some people lack specific ones completely. B. Adrenaline or artificial substitutes are great painkillers. It's likely that you can bring someone to their knees when they're not all charged up and not be able to affect them when they're mad at you. They may have huge bruises later where you gripped them, and not have felt a thing at the time. Done that myself.
    Pressure points are great as long as you don't rely on them.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

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