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Thread: Looking for information

  1. #1
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    Default Looking for information

    Coming back to Japan from the States I met a man who is in the armed forces and trains in Okinawa. He has an organazation call Universal Martial Arts Association in North Carolina. His Name is Frank Williams. Seemed like a nice fellow and I was wondering if any of you knew of or about him. Seemed to know his stuff too!
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

  2. #2
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Mark, You know, there are a lot of Camp Hanson one year wonders who talk a good line. This guy could be the next Nagamine, but I am suspicious of names like, "Universal Martial Arts Association." Why does he not have a ryu name associated with his group? Or an Okinawan name? It seems like every American serviceman that spends any time in Okinawa or Japan comes back as the head of an organization with a high dan rank. A one or three year tour in Okinawa, no matter who you study with, does not make you senior. I am also a bit suspicious that the Okinawans like American money and maybe overlook a lot...from what I have seen, anyway.

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    Mark, You know, there are a lot of Camp Hanson one year wonders who talk a good line. This guy could be the next Nagamine, but I am suspicious of names like, "Universal Martial Arts Association." Why does he not have a ryu name associated with his group? Or an Okinawan name? It seems like every American serviceman that spends any time in Okinawa or Japan comes back as the head of an organization with a high dan rank. A one or three year tour in Okinawa, no matter who you study with, does not make you senior. I am also a bit suspicious that the Okinawans like American money and maybe overlook a lot...from what I have seen, anyway.
    Mr. Williams

    I understand your point. On his card he lists Shorin Ryu,Weapons,Jujitsu. But anyone can put anything on a card. His URL is www.universal-martial-arts.org
    if you want to check it out. He seemed to have been trainining a long time but as you said anyone spin a good yarn.
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

  4. #4
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Well, He teaches all the right kata, and was over there long enough to absorb some good stuff. If I lived there I'd train with him.

  5. #5
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    I am suspicious of names like, "Universal Martial Arts Association." Why does he not have a ryu name associated with his group? Or an Okinawan name?

    I don't know the school or instructor in question, however, there are many reasons why an instructor may decide to sever ties with Asia. Either way, it isn't necessary to have the standard Okinawan ryu names or to be associated with them to make one legit.

  6. #6
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    A look at the RANKS AND REQUIREMENTS page gave me these thoughts...

    26 months gets you up to shodan - a little fast for my taste. You can "learn" all your bb material in 26 months but you can't perfect it by then, imho.

    Pinan katas are taught at the shodan and nidan levels - I believe this shows a lack of understanding that these were non-traditional kata created for school children. Are they out of touch with the history of their ryu?

    They choose one Wan kata (out of 4) at an early level, two Potsai (out of 4), one Kushanku (out of 3), one Ji (out of 3) and one Rohai (out of 3) a shotgun approach that seems to imply they were learned outside of a systematic ryu, piecemeal, so to speak.

    Do I think all this is bad? Not really, just interesting for an international standards organisation...
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  7. #7
    Gene Williams Guest

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    I would not call the Pinan non-traditional, as they are really at the heart of the Shuri tradition. Itosu created them for high school students, but he took them from older orthodox kata. I view Itosu as sort of the Mozart of karate I think most practitioners of Shuri based ryu would see the Pinan as traditional kata.

  8. #8
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    Default Pinan Traditional

    I agree that most Shorin folks would see Pinan as "traditional" but they are also kyu level kata as Gene pointed out.

    I would be interested to know of an Okinawan Shorin ryu ha that doesn't teach Pinan as part of the kyu level training.

    The kata are not that old though and this might cause some to view them as "non-traditional." I

    t is curious however, that one would choose to teach Pinan as part of the shodan/nidan requirements. As I understand it, most schools teach them as part of the kyu level training. Not to say that one would stop training them when they reached shodan/nidan.

    Tim Black

  9. #9
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    Default Matsumura Shorin Ryu

    You wrote," A look at the RANKS AND REQUIREMENTS page gave me these thoughts...

    26 months gets you up to shodan - a little fast for my taste. You can "learn" all your bb material in 26 months but you can't perfect it by then, imho.

    Pinan katas are taught at the shodan and nidan levels - I believe this shows a lack of understanding that these were non-traditional kata created for school children. Are they out of touch with the history of their ryu?

    They choose one Wan kata (out of 4) at an early level, two Potsai (out of 4), one Kushanku (out of 3), one Ji (out of 3) and one Rohai (out of 3) a shotgun approach that seems to imply they were learned outside of a systematic ryu, piecemeal, so to speak.

    Do I think all this is bad? Not really, just interesting for an international standards organization...

    26 Months is "minimum" time in grade and I have never had a black belt promoted in less than 3 years. Some have taken 5 years and others a little more or less but in large part the average would be about 3 1/2 years.

    The goal is not to have a student achieve "mastery" by Shodan. They should simply have a solid foundation in Basics and fundamentals so that their mind and body will allow them to learn more advanced concepts once they reach Shodan. There are 10 levels of black belt and many "years" between Dan grade promotions for them to achieve "Mastery". I have never seen a Shodan or Nidan that had achieved Mastery and I have spent 13 of the past 24 years living and training in Okinawa, Japan, and Korea with some of the very best in the world.

    I wanted to educate you as to why we teach Pinan Yondan and Godan at the Shodan level. One major reason is simply bunkai not difficulty. We teach practical applications with all our kata and a student is required not just to perform the kata but to understand and be able to dissect it and show multiple applications for each technique found in the kata.

    I think there is a lack of understanding on the part of many westerners about the Pinans. If you are having difficulty with Kusanku you should go back to your Pinans and work them hard so that the techniques you learn in them flows into the higher katas. Hohan Soken was one of the oldest living and most revered Okinawan Shorin Ryu masters with a direct family lineage to Bushi Matsumura. He taught the Pinans for that very reason. That is how he taught Kise, Kuda, Enouye, Akamine, Arakaki and others and that is how I have been taught and continue to train.

    In my style there is only 2 Passai kata, one Rohai, and 1 Kusanku. Wansu, Anaku, and Jion were brought into the system by Fusei Kise from Shorinji Ryu. Matsumura Seito is much older than Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, Isshin Ryu and other more modern styles that many who practice "Japanese" karate now consider "traditional". I studied Shito Ryu under Butch Velez and Shogo Kuniba. We had Kosokensho, Kosokendai, Shihokusoken, and another form of Kusanku. It is important to know that they were derivatives of the original "one" Kusanku".

    My "Ryu" is very old and very structured. Many other "Ryu" now have modernized or as we say in Okinawa "Japanized" kata to make them flashy with wider, deeper, and often impractical stances.

    Maybe people should question systems that are merely 50 years old instead of thinking those systems have set the standard all other should adhere to and accept as their own.

    I encourage you and the others on the list to learn as much as you can about Matsumura Seito or Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu and Hohan Soken.

    I hope this has answered some of your questions. I would appreciate it if you can post this reply for me until my membership is approved. I can be contacted at sensei@universal-martial-arts.org

    Sincerely,

    Frank D. Williams, PhD

  10. #10
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Most seniors I know, some of them Okinawan, have said that if they had to give up all their kata except a few they would keep the Pinan. That's good enough for me.

  11. #11
    Iron Chef Guest

    Default Looks great

    Ranks and requirements chart looked OK to me. Every teacher should present material how he sees fit and how he is confortable presenting the material. Some cases it is the difficultly of the form and in some cases it is the level of the bunkai that determnes the order of the syllabus. It depends on how you teach. This I think is why some schools switched Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan. The old Pinan Shodan is more difficult but IMO Pinan Nidan has higher level bunkai.

    I'm just shooting the breeze here, nothing I say means squat. Personally I would teach Pinan Godan before Paisai. I always viewed Pinan Godan as a learning form to help prepare you for Paisai and also Chinto. If you have learned Pinan Godan, Anaku, Paisai Sho you have a pretty good base to start your study of Matsumura no Paisai. If you know these kata plus Pinan Shodan you have practiced most the moves of Matsumura no Paisai. Pinan Godan and Sandan is a good base for starting to learn Chinto. Naihanchi Sandan I found to be very difficult and I would teach it later. But, I'm really right handed. My left handed techniques in Sandan feel like a dead fish. Oh well. I would teach Naihanchi Shodan earlier. Also these are requirement and may not reflect when thing are necessarily taught. We don't require Tensho for quite a while but my students learn it very early. I like to end all my classes with Tensho.

    My righthandedness is the hard part about Bo Yondan it has a little bit of Gyaku Bo in it, though not nearly as bad as Yonagawa no Gyaku Bo. I don't see Chikin Bo on the requirements sheet which surprised me a little. Bo Nidan and Bo Sandan I always kind of understood to be a learning forms to get you ready for Chikin Bo, especially Bo Nidan. (Old Bo Nidan, last time I saw Kise Sensei he switched Bo Nidan and Bo Shodan, which is a village version of Sakugawa no Kon this according to Kuda Sensei back in 88.)

    Overall looks great to me. Glad to see people still teaching village karate. They are great traditions. Hell it warms my heart these days just to see people not teaching gymastics these days. Again I'm a Goju guy and know anything about this stuff.

    Bye guys. Take it easy.

    Gambatte Kudasai

  12. #12
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    Default

    A thoughtful answer, fair enough.

    I don't know how I missed the connection to Hohan Soken Sensei and I do respect the organisations you mention.
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

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    Default Matsumura Shorin

    Hi Frank:

    I was just curious who you are training with in Matsumura Shorin in Okinawa?

    Respectfully,
    Tim Black

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    Default Okinawa Training

    Hi Tim,

    I am training with Ed Gingras. I will most likely make some adjustments to the requirments page when I leave Okinawa. I learned Chikin (Tsuken) Bo from Shihan Charles Garrett a few years ago and re-learned it here with Sensei Gingras. I have really enjoyed the limited training I have gotten during this tour on Okinawa. I travel so much with my job that I only to train with Sensei Gingras a few weeks every couple of months.

    I am no longer a member of the AOSKKF and have only spoken to Master Kise once since my arrival here last August. Things have changed greatly since Isao took over.

    Frank

  15. #15
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    Default Those things happen...too bad

    Frank:

    I guess those things happen in all dojos. Hopefully you are enjoying your training and getting what you want from it.

    Best,
    Tim Black

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