reality VS the myth

[Old Dragon]

This may be an old argument but I always am looking for a better understanding.

During some of the other posts it keeps coming up about what "would work in a real fight"

It is always interesting for me to read posts from dozens of young sport fighters who have won a few bar fights in their day lay claim to understand "combat"

In actual fact the concept and basic premis of "street fighting" and that of "combat" are very different and unique.


I do not deny that there is a risk of death in a street fight nor do I down play its impact on your adrenalin. I think the big thing is that I firmly feel that there is a difference between training in a dojo and military and police training. I am not talking difference in technique but in mind set.

John Doe got into a bar fight last night while out with the boys......


Smith woke up this morning knowing he was heading out on a military exercise, going to walk his beat, or knew he was working Cell block C, He accepts that each and every day he works like this he has 2 things that are real possiblilities....

1. He may be attacked
2. if so... somebody may die.


Raise your hand if you woke up saturday morning before you hit the bar on saturday night and ran that thought through your head.

No matter what you say, this mind set plays a big part in self defence and how they conduct themselves in combative situations. If anyone can convince me that training a few nights a week in a dojo and listening to Sensei "I was a marine for 30 years" is going to equal that attitude......... go for it......

(my comment was not meant to lessen the experiences of those that were marines, but when they train you in the dojo........ you just dont put in the hours he did....)

Mike O'Leary

[Jock Armstrong]

Simple, basic tech usually work best. Learn a few tech for each "range" and hone them to perfection. Understand the "level" of the threat posed. Before you go to work, out on the beat etc, know what the bottom line is and whether you are prepared to go to that line. After that, experience is the only teacher.

[Old Dragon]

Thank you Mr. Armstrong

I like your comment about knowing the bottom line and weather you are prepared to go to that line.



this is exactly what facinates me so much. What is it that puts this mind set in place. It doesnt mean that these people like to fight, in fact I have found that many hate to fight and if they are good at their jobs seldom find themselves having to use violence. But in their heads meeting the bottom line head on is an accepted reality. I often wonder if knowing you are willing to meet the bottom line is what makes them avoid it and chose other options, avoiding it until all other options are exhausted.

I am small in stature, I joke and am friendly with the clientele I work with constantly, last week one of them lost a family member and was very frustrated they could not attend the funeral, we talked for an hour, I wanted to make sure all was ok before I sent him back. Many have told me I am to friendly. In the last 2 years I have stepped between confronting individuals and talked them down on several occassions. One older client laughed at me one day and told me I was crazy....... he also commented on the fact that he thought I cared.......... then he laughed... and said..."of course I also remember you in the old days..."

I also rememer him..... and frankly we had our times he and I... both of us have mellowed over 20 years and it is interesting how he comes and has a coffee every now and then and I get the impression that in a way its like visiting an old friend. No personal exchanges happen.. just two old harmless old men on opposite sides of the fence sharing a moment in time with someone whom they know understands respect. Both whom understand the bottom line and know it is the last place you want to go, but if someone decides to see if he will go there........... well lets just say that sometimes you should be careful what you ask for....you just might get it.

Mike O'Leary

[Kevin73]

I remember in a seminar with Lt. Grossman I was at (Bulletproof Mindset) that was for LEO he talked about the stresses in combat and he talked about the #1 phobia (not fear) of humans is the adversion to violence.

He then talked about how it used to be thought by researchers that only sociopaths wouldn't break down and would enjoy combat but that research now points that there is a second group and that is the people who understand violence and know that you sometimes have to use violence to deal with things.

I think that is along the mindset you might be talking about, the "predator" mindset instead of just going through life only concerned about your own enjoyment and then when something happens cry "Why me? How could this happen?".

[Old Dragon]

Kevin:

I'm not sure I'm understanding your term predator... I agree with the "why me" comment. Predator may not be the word I use. I am refering to those who accept violence as a part of life. They dont deny its existence and I agree with your phobia comment, the mind set I am talking about has dealt with that phobia. In accepting it one would see it for what it is. Predator to me is hunter attitude. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit. I do think were close on this.

Mike O'leary

[Kevin73]

I guess the analogy I would use to best describe it would be the old cartoons that had Wil E. Coyote and the sheep dog in them. Both of them are "predators" but the sheep dog doesn't prey on the sheep he protects them from the coyote.

I guess in my world view I use the term "predator" to describe both kinds. In the military or LEO you do learn to hunt. Either the bad guy on the battlefield or looking for the tracks and trails of a criminal. I think that everyday self-defense should teach people to "hunt" the bad guy in as much as recognizing the signs of what the bad guy is up to.

I can see also why "predator" has the negative conotation as well. Predatory behavior of stalking the criminal's victim or sexual predators is usually how the term is applied.

[Old Dragon]

Fair enough......... I wasnt sure of your definition of predator.



In Law Enforcement I see sometimes those that have a badge or uniform on because they have issues of their own. I'm not sure how they get past the screening process, I suppose all our safety checks have weak points.

Its like the "newbie" that wears the "high and tight" the leather gloves (on a blistering hot day , sunglasses and never smiles. He normally pushes weights to get that "A" line figure.......... but frankly I think he is scared witless....... in fact I am sure of it having seen a few turn tail and run. \ ( I am talking a few and not the many, and I realize I have sterotyped by the description, I am making a point not critisizing all who resemble this description)

I often think of a Japanese saying when it comes to these guys...

"The one that talks much of budo, knows little. The one that speaks little sometimes knows much.

[Goju Man]

In Law Enforcement I see sometimes those that have a badge or uniform on because they have issues of their own. I'm not sure how they get past the screening process, I suppose all our safety checks have weak points.

Well, it could simply be that they become that way after wearing the uniform a while. It's very difficult to say who will react which way when the "bullets" are live so to speak. Being mentally prepared but not as prepared physically can have a similar outcome. By that I mean physically fit and martially fit.

[Old Dragon]

Quote: Well, it could simply be that they become that way after wearing the uniform a while. It's very difficult to say who will react which way when the "bullets" are live so to speak.



I agree with your comment. In my last email that you quoted I was specificlly talking about the New folks. You have a point. It is time and patience that makes a good lineman...... nothing else.. kinda like karate..... practice, practice, practice, and keep an open mind.


It goes like this.

year one: 20 people join the organization

year two: 18 are left, of those 6 have promoted quickly

year 3: a major incident ensues involving all of the new folks... 3 walk off the job in the middle of it, 6 quit the next day.........


year 5: what is left of the original 20 that stayed on the line is 4, they greet the new group of 20 in.

This may sound harsh but after 5 years they are just beginning to get the hang of the job. They survived this long and will probably do well in the next 10 years and so become experienced and "safe" .

many come to the job figuring that all you need is a good pair of mirrored sunglasses and a big chest and a pair of black gloves. After all doesnt that intimidate everyone? ........ (sarcasam here) You have to understand that as of late what I see is you finish high school, take a 2 year criminology course and bingo.... your walkin the wall carrying an 18" boom boom.

What happened to the days when your basic requirement was "do your knuckles drag, can you open beer cans with your teeth" hahahahhaha

With a bit of humor I'm asking "what happened to the days when they wanted people with a bit of street smarts".


Mike O'Leary

[DeLamar.J]

The right mindset is 50% of martial arts! That is the part of MA training that alot of schools fail to teach. They concentrate to hard on the combat part and not enough on the mental part. If I get into a fight this is my mindset,, this person will have to kill me to stop me, I will fight until I am incapasitated or maimed. Because if I loose this fight this person will kill me,they will stomp my face into the curb until my brains are in the street,then they will rape and kill my wife. If I am in a fight this is what goes through my mind, I cant be stopped,and if I am I wont know it because I'll be dead. This is the key to unlocking your fury,or chi as some might call it, I call it my fury.