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Thread: PP in grappling

  1. #1
    Scott Rogers Guest

    Default PP in grappling

    Pressure point techniques work excellent in grappling. This is not to say that if you do not know how to grapple they will be much help but ,just like in the striking they are an add on to help you. One excellent point to start working on is tw 17. this point is located in the depression behind the jaw and is pressed or struck in a direction from fron to back. Have someone pout you in a guillotine choke, and while releiving the pressure with one hand, try to reach up and press into this point to effect a release.

  2. #2
    Iron Chef Guest

    Default One of my favorite post of all-time

    Thats an old Judo trick. I try to use it to create space where I could slip a hand under to get a grip for a version of okuri eri jime. The technique is similar to what I think the brazilians call the clock choke. I get these PP things done on me also in the course of Judo. As long as you keep the hands out of the face you can usually do it in practice. After a while you learn to ignore it and try to go on with business. I guess Judo makes you numb. Well this topic reminded me of one of my favorite post of all time. It awfully long so I won't quote the whole thing but here is part of it. Enjoy, I really liked it when Ellis first posted it. Have a good week.
    Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
    ... First of all, the SUBTLETY would be getting a struggling, aggressive, maybe drug-intoxicated or berserk individual on his stomach so you could "get" a knee on the neck!! And it's far kinder to put on a decisive technique to immobilize someone rather than a half-assed one that allows them to continue the fight, perhaps necessitating a less "subtle" and more damaging level of force.
    More generally, my system of koryu grappling has kyusho - nerve, pressure points, etc. In fact, the proper attack to the neck IS a knee or elbow.
    I've probably told this story before, but what the heck. Fooling around, I told a judo instructor friend of mine in Japan that, due to my koryu skill, I was unstranglible. He, of course, challenged me. I lay on my back and he put a cross-collar on me. I can take a good strangle for a few moments, and I used forceful pressure on points in his rib cage with my knuckles, and he shot over my head in agony (note this is a form of hypnosis - I set up conditions whereby, as will be seen, he 'forgot' what he could do). He was majorly upset. I was laughing - Kirin beer fuels such whimsey - and I said, "O.K. Let's do it again. You're pissed, right? So let's imagine I just raped your sister. C'mon, bro, get into it. Imagine my judo-defeating hairy gaijin self on your sister. Strangle me again!" See, I really wanted to see if this kyusho pressure stuff worked under real conditions! He jumps on me, slams the cross-choke home, I'm resisting all my might, and I'm already starting to go out. Put on the pressure points hard - NOTHING! Spread my arms wide, knuckles out, and with all my might, slammed them home, right in the prescribed points. (He had bruises for weeks, and I might have slightly cracked his cartilage at one point). Next thing I remember is the revival. We both started laughing and poured another. The point being that a) pressure points, as most people conceive of them, are really are not combative moves they go with the Klingon Death touch. b) the proof of this only comes up in free-style, which includes what happens to the body when you are enraged, and totally committed, and don't care about pain.
    ....

  3. #3
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    Thanks for posting that Ellis Amdur quote, Ed.

    I remember reading a story about Royler (or possibly Renzo) Gracie when he first came to the States. Apparently he was rolling with some karate type who started digging him in the ribs, neck, legs, etc. The other Gracie who was running the class asked him "what are you doing?", to which the karate guy replied "working pressure points."

    The other Gracie said: "well stop it. You're p*ssing him off."

    ---

    Of course pressure points can be used to create space, but there is a huge danger in relying on them. You need to know and train your escapes and positions and setups first. This is particularly true of escapes, since people often seem to go for PPs as a panic reaction, when they are doing badly.
    If you think that PPs will help you out of unfavourable situations, you just might find (as Mr. Amdur and the above-mentioned-karate guy found out) that you just p*ss your opponent off.

    Above all, please do not start using them during newaza randori, unless you both agree to it first. I have had this happen too many times. Basically, if you feel you have the right to start going for PPs on me, then I feel I have the right to start punching you in the face.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  4. #4
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    Basically, if you feel you have the right to start going for PPs on me, then I feel I have the right to start punching you in the face.

    I love It.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  5. #5
    Iron Chef Guest

    Smile Judo guys are a pretty sturdy bunch

    Hi Hector

    I got your e-mail, thanks a lot. I tried to forward it to my office so I could respond today but it didn't go through. I'll try to send a reply tonight after I get home from the dojo. Things are going pretty good up here right now.

    The only PP I ever use in newaza is the one under the jaw using the index finger knuckle in the course of trying to slip in a collar choke. This works best when on top going for an okuri eri jime. Psychologically this works better when you are in the superior and safer postion. When on the bottom and getting you butt kicked in osaekomi waza then the last thing I want to do is !!!! off my opponent

    Yes the other PPs like gouging the ribs and cheap crap like that won't do anything other than piss off your partner. I guess this stuff must work pretty good on karate guys though or they wouldn't be doing it. But all you will do is !!!! off a Judo player or BJJ player.

    Just don't do the PP the is supposed to cause defecation during newaza. :

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    Wink Oil check.

    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    Just don't do the PP the is supposed to cause defecation during newaza. :
    I might try that one on my girlfriend, though.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  7. #7
    Scott Rogers Guest

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    Of course you should not rely solely on just pressure points. You do need to know how to grapple. In a grappling match points should not be used because they are similar to striking an opponent and would be either illegal if caught, or unfair in a friendly training match.

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    What about using striking Lung-5 to bring your opponents head down to you, then getting head control for the roll-off?
    Scott Watkins

    Undisputed Master of the 'Redneck Tweeta death gripple'

    and if we are the reason for this universe, it would seem like a huge waste of space.. don't believe me? just pick up any newspaper and read what kind of stupid things humanity is up to on any given day and try to convince me that something as vast and scenic and beautiful was made for this collective retardation

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    A couple of weeks ago I was a judo course at my aikido dojo, I was in randori (but I didn't know the legal rules of engagement properly) when my partner managed to get me in a scalf hold (jp?) on the ground.

    The only thing I could do to get out of it was by clamping my hand around the back of his neck and applying pressure through the thumb and middle finger on the sides of his neck (applied on the more muscular part of the neck I think).

    Well, the harder he applied the hold on me, the harder I gripped. It ended when his face went red, dropped his head and the instructor stopped the bout.

    So my question is, is this a valid or good pressure point to go for. If it is even a pressure point.

    Secondly, if my partner had been a more experienced judo player (and for the sake of argument a BJJ player), would this still have worked or would I have just pissed the other person off.

    Cheers.
    .

    Dojo Chief Crash Test Dummy

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    The only PP I ever use in newaza is the one under the jaw using the index finger knuckle in the course of trying to slip in a collar choke.

    Ed,

    This seems to be the classic judo prying tech for opening up the neck area and exposing the choke,perfectly legal in judo.In BJJ you can actually put your hands on his forehead and push the head back exposing the choke in that manner.


    I believe that most all other forms of desperation PP attacks will eventually prevent one from acquiring the solid "foundation" needed to learn grappling in it's proper form.People have to realize that inorder to learn certain areas of combat properly one must eliminate certain rules inorder to gain the expertise in that area.


    Now,from an analytical point of view one can argue that real fighting mostly involves"Everything Goes"but what most people seem to overlook is that the quality of learning each and every different phase of combat is mostly diluted because the core principles that one is trying to learn is automatically thrown out the window.

    An example can be used with boxing per se,let's say that a fighter is trying to learn how to properly throw punches like a boxer,so that he can add this knowledge of punching to his already long list of technical attributes.LOL

    If everytime you try to work on your boxing skills someone shoots in and tries to take you down you will become very good at that part of dealing with someone trying to take you down(which can very well be reality) but unfortunately in the long run your boxing skills will not improve much because you have not eliminated certain rules in training that allows you to gain the expertise of boxing.

    As you can see sometimes more rules although in most cases would seem to be less realistic is actualy nessesary for a portion of your training inorder to gain real expertise in a certain area of fighting.
    Last edited by hectokan; 27th February 2004 at 13:58.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by StanLee
    Secondly, if my partner had been a more experienced judo player (and for the sake of argument a BJJ player), would this still have worked or would I have just pissed the other person off.
    Dunno. We'll just have to put it to the test at the next London E-budo meet-up. :


    ------
    Hector, spot on! Very well said.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  12. #12
    Iron Chef Guest

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    Originally posted by StanLee
    A couple of weeks ago I was a judo course at my aikido dojo, I was in randori (but I didn't know the legal rules of engagement properly) when my partner managed to get me in a scalf hold (jp?) on the ground.
    The Japanee term is probably Kesa Gatame unless he clamped your your arm that was on his side across your face then it would have kata gatame.

    Originally posted by StanLee
    The only thing I could do to get out of it was by clamping my hand around the back of his neck and applying pressure through the thumb and middle finger on the sides of his neck (applied on the more muscular part of the neck I think).

    Well, the harder he applied the hold on me, the harder I gripped. It ended when his face went red, dropped his head and the instructor stopped the bout.[/B]
    I am having hard time with the description sounds like it may appear that you were trying to throttle his neck with two handed or trying to do some kind of carotid pinch. You should not do that in Judo and it isn't effective anyway unless you get some good leverage and try to crush the dudes windpipe. Yes that will !!!! someone off I believe. But, I don't know if I understood your description properly so you may want to disregard.

    Here is something to think about in regards to chokes. The carotid choke in most (If not all, I'm just really hesitant to ever say all.) is a myth. You don't cut the blood flow off TO THE Brain. Pressure on the arterial walls to to great. Kind of like grabbing a fire hose with your bare hands and cutting off the flow of water. You won't do it. If you have an arterial gas test done where they take blood out of your arteries you will be told to be very very still or you can die. If you jerk around when they puncture the artery with the needle it can be bad news.

    What you will do though is cut off the flow through the jugular vein. Blood can enter the head but it can't leave. If you have ever been choked out what you feel is the feeling that your head is going to pop. This pressure from the blood build up can knock you out. If you stop the out flow then yes circulation of fresh blood to the brain stops its just the choke point is the veins and not the arteries.

    Originally posted by StanLee
    So my question is, is this a valid or good pressure point to go for. If it is even a pressure point.[/B]
    I don't know but I bet it is. From looking at accupunture picture books the entire neck is a pressure point I think.

    Originally posted by StanLee
    Secondly, if my partner had been a more experienced judo player (and for the sake of argument a BJJ player), would this still have worked or would I have just pissed the other person off. [/B]
    Had your partner been a more experienced Judo man or BJJ player then Nothing would have worked period. Sorry that is just the way it is. Maybe if you are lucky and really quick, supple and incredible strong you could pull something of of your butt. Who knows but experience is the whole reason for the training

    FYI: BJJ is a variant of Kosen Judo they are from the same family tree. The key is the training methodology by which you train in a free action envirnoment against a fully resisting opponent. This gives you a good indicator of what kinds of things can work. I see karate guys say that they have throws in their kata and believe they can pull it off without ever throwing a resisting opponent in their life. Lets say I think their assessments may be a little optomistic at times but, who knows sometimes it better to be lucky than good.

  13. #13
    Iron Chef Guest

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    Great points Hector.

    We've disscussed before that "Everything Goes" Arts often don't work so good. Killer techniques that are so dangerous that you can't practice them can be worthless. Like the Jujutsu SeioNage that breaks uke's arm vs the safe Judo version that we used to plant people in the dojo every week. The safe kicks the killer ones but, or at least in my case. I've never been allowed to actually practice the "effective killer version". Hsve a good weekend.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    What you will do though is cut off the flow through the jugular vein. Blood can enter the head but it can't leave. If you have ever been choked out what you feel is the feeling that your head is going to pop. This pressure from the blood build up can knock you out. If you stop the out flow then yes circulation of fresh blood to the brain stops its just the choke point is the veins and not the arteries.
    I didn't know that. Thanks Ed. So the pressure of the blood already in the head prevents fresh oxygenated blood reaching it? i.e. the choke does work by starving the brain of oxygen? (Just checking in case I misunderstood.)

    I'm very familiar with the 'head about to pop' sensation. Oh boy, how familiar I am with that sensation.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  15. #15
    Hissho Guest

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    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    FYI: BJJ is a variant of Kosen Judo they are from the same family tree. The key is the training methodology by which you train in a free action envirnoment against a fully resisting opponent. This gives you a good indicator of what kinds of things can work. I see karate guys say that they have throws in their kata and believe they can pull it off without ever throwing a resisting opponent in their life. Lets say I think their assessments may be a little optomistic at times but, who knows sometimes it better to be lucky than good.
    For the sake of accuracy, BJJ is not a variant of Kosen judo.

    Kosen Judo did not really develop until after Maeda left Japan. It may be more accurate to say that BJJ is a variant of judo newaza, originally passed on by a man who was present at the Kodokan during the time frame that newaza was being developed/emphasized after the losses to the Fusen-ryu, and further adapted from his experiences fighting wrestlers and other non-judoka in challenge matches and pro-rasslin'.

    The fact that there are so many similarities is more a function of coming from a base in common principles and techniques and the use of the keikogi.


    As far as pressure points not working, everyone has it all wrong. Doubtless because they have not experienced a "true" lineage to legit Judo or BJJ practice:

    Judo and BJJ specifically develop the ki and the meridiens, making the body externally and internally flexible and at the same time allowing the ability to internally bend/twist the meridiens away from pressure point attacks as they are being utilized. BJJ positional strategy makes this easier, but the fact is the famously grueling BJJ warm up exercises, many borrowed from yoga and the "Brazilian Yoga" Gymnastica Natural system, are what develop this internal manipulation.


    Mike, you have e-mail. I will be in your neck of the woods next week.

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