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Thread: PP in grappling

  1. #16
    Iron Chef Guest

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    Originally posted by MikeWilliams
    I didn't know that. Thanks Ed. So the pressure of the blood already in the head prevents fresh oxygenated blood reaching it? i.e. the choke does work by starving the brain of oxygen? (Just checking in case I misunderstood.)
    ...
    Yes it does starve the brain of oxygen and render can someone unconscious by oxygen deprevation and even kill if applied long enough. The Local Police Department has now doesn't allow chokeholds Maybe because some cops don't know what they are always doing and sometimes mistake seizures as resistence or maybe they just get a little too excited. Who know but I hate to see this policy.

    But, some chokes can cause immedimate knock outs. We have one we call the Masa Masacre. Its named after the Judo teacher from Yokohama who taught it to us. We didn't know the real name of technique. But basically it is a leg assisted choke done when the opponent is on the ground face down semi-turtled or on his hand and knees. Once you get the grip for the choke you sutemi (sacrifice fall). The collar circle closes so hard and fast it can knock you out immediately. Our dojo went to a tournament once and I was watching a team mate compete and he got the choke on and sacked. The guy went out immediately but the ref didn't catch it at first because there is no tap when you go out immediately. Mark was pretty shook up he looked at me and said Ed I killed him. I told no you didn't he's fine, which he was he just need to wake back up. Judo players are pretty sturdy. The knock out in this case I think has to do with the atemi effect of the collar closing so hard and fast but I could be wrong.

  2. #17
    Iron Chef Guest

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    Originally posted by Hissho
    ...

    As far as pressure points not working, everyone has it all wrong. Doubtless because they have not experienced a "true" lineage to legit Judo or BJJ practice:
    ...
    Thanks for for the history stuff. I thought Maeda was Judo I didn't realize he fused his method with other stuff in addition to the Judo. Nice post.

    I don't know about my lineage. My teacher was pretty top notch I thought. My teacher's teacher finish 3rd place in the 1960 World Championships in the big guy's division. And came from the Kodokan and was one of their top newaza players in his day. But I just don't understand all that meridian stuff. Also I know nothing about BJJ I'm just an old Judo player. My lineage just didn't teach those Ki thingies.

  3. #18
    Hissho Guest

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    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    Thanks for for the history stuff. I thought Maeda was Judo I didn't realize he fused his method with other stuff in addition to the Judo. Nice post.

    I don't know about my lineage. My teacher was pretty top notch I thought. My teacher's teacher finish 3rd place in the 1960 World Championships in the big guy's division. And came from the Kodokan and was one of their top newaza players in his day. But I just don't understand all that meridian stuff. Also I know nothing about BJJ I'm just an old Judo player. My lineage just didn't teach those Ki thingies.

    Maeda was a judoka. He just had a broader range of experience using his judo against non-judoka. There is a photo of him in fighting trunks performing a hold on another, similarly dressed opponent. Just like modern MMA fighters/submission grapplers.

    As far as the ki and meridien stuff, I was just being a butt head. The reason this stuff tends not to work is because judo and BJJ trains against real contact, with real flow, in real time. Rather than legitimize questionable fighting theory, this kind of practice tends to demonstrate that a lot that is accepted as effective within the martial arts is nothing of the sort when the other guy can resist and fight back.

    BTW, the reason for many police departments' not allowing "choke holds" is because they were being performed as just that - bar arm chokes - by poorly trained officers. Correctly done shime waza - as in carotid neck holds which do not effect the windpipe but do attack bloodflow to the brain - are experiencing a comeback.

  4. #19
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    How can we forget that old reliable pointy sharp elbows applied to ukes inside thighs,inorder to break the close guard.


    PP BABY
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

  5. #20
    Iron Chef Guest

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    Originally posted by hectokan
    How can we forget that old reliable pointy sharp elbows applied to ukes inside thighs,inorder to break the close guard.

    PP BABY
    That one hurts. I like the way Roberto screams in agony when Marco does that to break Roberto's guard!

    I'm glad some police departments are allowing the comeback of hadake jime. I would like to see police be able to the use the most effect restraining available to them. The city guys at the dojo were complaining a few years ago and they were discussing the memo that came down to them banning the use of choke holds. The county guys I think still have more of a free hand in what they do. The big joke was if they use a choke hold to restrain a bad guy they would get in whole lot more trouble than if they used deadly force. The only police I really get to interact with much are the LEOs in the dojo. These guys take continuing education very seriously. I wish all LEOs were like that. I hear a lot of their war stories and I don't think the general public realizes just how an arrest situation can turn in to a fight situation. I hate to see effective restraint techniques taken away from them. We have a lot of policemen in Goju Ryu. We have none in the Judo dojo here. That always kind of surprised me a little because I always thought the judo stuff would be very applicable. I guess it is because our original teacher Goju Ryu here was a policeman and he drew in LEOs to the dojo. Myself and one other blackbelt who is a LEO ( he is, I am not) have a big Judo background and it has become a large part of our Goju Ryu training. This may not be good from a tradition perspective but, Oh well I think its good.

  6. #21
    Iron Chef Guest

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    Originally posted by Hissho
    ....The reason this stuff tends not to work is because judo and BJJ trains against real contact, with real flow, in real time. Rather than legitimize questionable fighting theory, this kind of practice tends to demonstrate that a lot that is accepted as effective within the martial arts is nothing of the sort when the other guy can resist and fight back.
    ....

  7. #22
    mech Guest

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    This is just at the trainning level:


    "The other Gracie said: "well stop it. You're p*ssing him off."

    Works best.



    mech

  8. #23
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    Originally posted by Iron Chef
    Here is something to think about in regards to chokes. The carotid choke in most (If not all, I'm just really hesitant to ever say all.) is a myth. You don't cut the blood flow off TO THE Brain.
    Sorry, Ed, but you are wrong on this. The accepted model for strangulatin is carotid compression. See http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/chokes.htm or http://www.ebji.org/akeem/revive.html .


    Pressure on the arterial walls to to great. Kind of like grabbing a fire hose with your bare hands and cutting off the flow of water.

    The pressure in the carotid isn't going to be much higher than 120 mm Hg (well, that's an average for systolic pressure, maybe 2-3 times that during stress) - which is about 2.4 p.s.i. For comparison, an average value for pinch pressure (pinching thumb and forefinger) is about 16 pounds.


    You won't do it. If you have an arterial gas test done where they take blood out of your arteries you will be told to be very very still or you can die. If you jerk around when they puncture the artery with the needle it can be bad news.
    ??? see http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/003855.htm


    What you will do though is cut off the flow through the jugular vein. Blood can enter the head but it can't leave. If you have ever been choked out what you feel is the feeling that your head is going to pop. This pressure from the blood build up can knock you out. If you stop the out flow then yes circulation of fresh blood to the brain stops its just the choke point is the veins and not the arteries.
    That's a little trickier to debate - if you block just the jugular and not the carotid, it's true that pressure will back up. But how much is pressure increased in the arterioles and capillaries in the brain? I'd suspect a potential for stroke, but have't been able to find any references.


    From looking at accupunture picture books the entire neck is a pressure point I think.
    With all this talk about pressure points, I'm surprised no one's mentioned the one that, in my view, works as advertised - the carotid sinus.

    The carotid sinus contains a baroreceptor that, when stimulated, inhibits heart. The Kodokan published a study where heart rate was decreased to less than one-third the rate prior to the choke, upon application of okuri-eri-jime.


    FYI: BJJ is a variant of Kosen Judo they are from the same family tree.
    As I understand it, Maeda was also trained in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, so the differences in modern judo and BJJ may be in part the TSR techniques not retained in the Kodokan syllabus. And, IIRC, TSR is somewhat known for atemi waza - maybe this includes pressure points?
    Last edited by dakotajudo; 17th March 2004 at 01:20.
    Peter Claussen

  9. #24
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    I have never experienced effective use of pressure points, personally. I've only experienced lame use of pressure points that didn't really do anything positive for the guy using them. Just learn to grapple if that's what you want to do.

  10. #25
    Hissho Guest

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    Little late getting back to the party:

    BJJ is not a Kosen Judo variant. Same family tree, certainly, but Kosen Judo had not even started yet when Maeda left Japan.

    It *may* be more accurate to say that Maeda was more influenced by the surge of interest in newaza practice at the Kodokan after the losses to Tanabe of the Fusen-ryu.

    And there is nothing in BJJ that looks anything like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

  11. #26
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    Hi Kit,

    I was hoping you can answer a question concerning Helios gracie self defense jiujitsu techniques.Some of these techniques look very similar to the moves found in classical jujutsu standup control & subdue type moves.


    My Question would be.....Did Maeda introduce any of these self defense moves from older jujutsu styles to Helio?or did Helio completely invent them upon his own research?




    PS:About Maeda being from the Kosen school.I believe that although he came right before the set up of the official kosen structure.He must have been part of the nucleus of groundwork scientist that were evolving that specific type of groundwork judo.This later became known as kosen judo.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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