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Thread: Richard Strozzi Heckler's 'In search of the warrior spirit'

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    Hi all,

    I'm about half way through Strozzi's 'In search of warrior spirit: awareness training with the Green berets'. I was reminded to buy it when I saw his name come up in the 'Marine martial art' threads going on here and at Budoseek. I haven't come to a clear conclusion about the book yet, or the ideas Strozzi presents, but I'd like to hear comments from anyone out there who has read this book, or has any more thoughts on Strozzi's notions of a 'holistic' approach to warriorship / manhood.

    Any inside gossip about stuff that happened during Strozzi's course which he chose to leave out of the book would also be much appreciated.

    RQ

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    Ruairi,

    I've read the book and thoroughly enjoyed it, I don't necessarily agree with everthing he does, but on the whole I think it was a good experiment. The most telling parts were at the end where he examines what went wrong, how they could improve and then when he re-visited some of the participants six months and then five years later.

    To me there are always going to be cultural and ethnic barriers to teaching stuff like this in this format, I think there should have been a fairly long build up phase where the various methods were explained and trialed prior to being enforced. I think more of the participants would have accepted the regimes if they'd have had time to acknowledge the benefits first. Perhaps volunteers could have undergone parts of the program and then presented back to the rest of the participants as a peer endorsement.

    As to wether this is the right way to instill a "warrior spirit" that has been discussed elsewhere. I don't necessarily agree with the method, but elements of it are definitely useful to the modern warrior.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  3. #3
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    On this one, I think they should have done it way differently.

    Too much of a culture clash, as Neil Hawkins mentions.

    having said that the most interesting things in the book, to me, were the ay the SF guys gently opened up every trainer and speaker they had, found the weak points and bored straight in.

    I thought their hypothetical choice of the Catholic Monk as a member of an A-Team was interesting , over the thers they had to choose from, including Strozzi-Heckler, a fact which seeingly irritated them, as they 'should' have taken a new age type, shouldn't they?

    Such were the expectations, but when you think about a monk from an order that trains as paramedics, it isn't too hard to see why they thought he was real steady.

    And when the fertilizer hits the rapidly rotating device, real steady is what you want backing you up.

    What may be a better question here , is whycouldn't any of the team or other speakers match the one guy's steady quality, especially seeing as how Aikido, the primary art in which the soldiers were being trained,is supposed to help one attain such a concentrated steadiness that noe others can rival.:-)

    No slam intended here to Aikido, but , what went wrong?They took a Christian Paramedic praying Monk, over a Buddhist monk, a ton and a half of skilled Aiki ka, and a whole slew of New Age Trainers.

    Before anyone accuses me of bias here, I am not a Christian, don't really believe in monasticism of any kind,was a Buddhist and am not any more, though I believe in bot Christ and Buddha, among Others:-) and believe in the ch'i or ki.Not necessarily as some do, but I believe it exists.As oxygen if nothing else.:-)

    I also believe the Special Forces guys made the right choice.They were in the business of making the right choice.

    When I was in'the War',as we said,I was on a Base with all services on it, never mind just why that was, and one day at the Base martial arts gym,in walks a Special Forces Commander, name withheld because he may need anonymity yet,but a Captain he was, and built like a wall.

    A dai Sifu of Indonesian Kuontao he was, and after the karate class, he taking a liking to the spirit of the class, asked us all to line up.

    He walked in front of each one of the thirty people or so there, stopped and stared into our eyes, one by one.

    Paying no attention whatever to rank,he tapped five of us on the shoulder, told us to step out, and asked the Instructor to dismisss the class, which he did.

    He then took us five, which included the instructor, aside, and told us what he had been looking for, which I am not going to commit to the Internet, but he had a thing he was looking for, and only five of us had it, and not all of us were high ranked, two were white belts and one was an orange belt and I was a brown belt, only one was a Black Belt.This was in seventy-four.


    He then told us if we liked we could appear at Seventeen hundred sharp on certain days and he would teach us Kuontao.

    This thing happened, until we were transferred.

    As to why I won't say what he was looking for I was not entriely happy with what I was told, but I will say I got on fine with the SF guys after that.He said we were all right, and we were all right.fter all, their lives had depended on his judgement for many years,some of them.That's enough about that, too.

    Years later when I read Strozzi-Heckler's book, I realized he and the others hadn't exactly passsed whatever tests the sf guys gave them, but the Catholic Monk,did.

    I am not surprised.They were looking for deliberate men.Steady men.They found one only, and said so.

    When Dai Uy(captain) tapped five soldiers on the shoulder, from different services, he was too.

    Make of that what you will. Withal I found Strozzi-Heckler's book, open, informative , truthful, and entertaining.

    I recommend it.I particulalry found Strozzi-Heckler's insight into himself, and into the real nature of violence, impressive.An eloquent and impressive read.


    [Edited by kusanku on 10-25-2000 at 03:28 AM]

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for replying, guys- I was starting to think that I was the only one in e-budo who had read the book.

    The first thing I would say is that I now have a clearer picture of what the whole 'Marine Martial Art' thing is trying to achieve. If Strozzi Heckler is involved (and he *is) then I think 'In search of warrior spirit' would be essential reading for everyone involved. However, I still can't come to a decision about what I think the Trojan warrior project *or* the Marine Martial art... I can't really think of the martial arts in soldiering terms, because I'm not a soldier.

    Strozzi states that fully 33% of the men thought the programme was useless in 'operational terms'. But all of the men seem to have acknowledged positive changes in their lives, little or in some cases huge (what about that guy who said "I'm hitting my kids less now.... and the whole familly are real pleased about that." Yikes!). The table of statistics presented in the book claim impressive percentage improvements in physical fitness etc. and in things like 'leadership skills' and interpersonal stuff. But this isn't exactly an objective report.
    As a programme for personal improvement, sure, I'd like to spend 6 months with Strozzi Heckler and the guys from SportsMind- but I'm guessing (emphasis on the guessing) that when one out of three soldiers who do a programme say it's useless in operational terms, but that they're better fathers and happier people now, then the Army head honchos think: right, that was bloody expensive, time consuming and a third of them think it's no good for soldiering... back to the drawing board.

    One thing I was wondering about is this: when did the Trojan warrior programme take place? Was it the mid eighties? A lot of the SF guys are old-school opposed to meditation and the new human potential training, etc. I wonder if this generation's crop of SF guys would be more open-minded?

    I'd also like to know how Strozzi's course with the Navy SEALs went.



    [Edited by Ruairi Quinn on 10-25-2000 at 12:03 PM]

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    The Trojan Warrior project took place about 1982-1983, and was an outgrowth of the First Earth Battalion project paper presented by Jim Channon and others.

    Something you have to remember is that management is typically not comfortable with the idea of self-actualized sergeants. Why? Not because they are any less lethal. Indeed, in many ways they are more lethal. However, the problem is that self-actualized sergeants don't always shout "Yessir, nossir, three bags full sir" in response to stupid requests or even orders. As Heckler says: "The institution of the Army wants [soldiers] to achieve deeper levels of power and control, but [does not] want them necessarily to begin thinking and feeling too much on their own."

    And for good reason. An example. The colonel thinks out loud during staff call. A junior officer who is a notorious suck-up immediately runs to Sarge to have him make the colonel's fantasy happen, he doesn't care how. What Captain Suck-up wants is for Sarge to say, "Yessir, nossir, three bags full sir."

    What Captain Suck-up doesn't want is: "Uh, sir, this regulation (see copy attached) specifically prohibits that. So, as what you are asking is a violation of a lawful general order, do you mind putting that order in writing, sir, and then repeat it in front of witnesses of the same or equal grade to yourself?"

    In real terms, Sarge is keeping Captain Suck-up from going to jail. But Captain Suck-up doesn't see it like that; he sees challenges to his authority. (Which isn't much, nobody likes him anyway.)

    Think this is not what happens? A true story. I had a friend, a Specialist, who once took six letters to the commander. One was addressed to the President, one to the division commander, two to senators, and the rest to the governor and some congressmen. The stupid request and the issues were enclosed, and the specialist asked the captain if he had anything he wanted to add to the envelopes before they went in the mailbox. Oddly, the captain decided that he would change his policies rather than try to explain them in writing to the entire chain of command.

    No, it's not career-enhancing, but that bothers the captain a lot more than the specialist, and is why the Army is institutionally against self-actualized subordinates.

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    Man, I know that this thread is old as the hills, but I have recently become very interested in this sort of research. I am definitely going to track down this book, but does anyone have any other references they can offer?

    I remember a conversation I had with an SF buddy I was working with and he said there was a marked difference between what the SF guys were studying--generally--(MA wise) and what the Ranger Bats were doing. Even at that, he said the further you got from Bragg, the *softer* the stuff got. And that 1st SFG (no surprise) typically had the most *off-the-wall* stuff. iHe mentioned that there were a few programs that were open to all 18s, but most guys went out and found their own stuff.

    That Earth Battalion stuff is fascinating, if not freaky. I think something like this could be positively re-evaluated, with the obvious perspective shifts since the 70s and early 80s. Honestly, I think that something like this should be re-evaluated.
    Matthew Snowden
    -The only way to learn is be aware and hold on tight.

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    Had a chance to observe a couple of the the 1-10 SF guys playing in the gym recently, and was fairly impressed at what they were doing. Good solid mix of striking and grappling, with a focus on strategy and tactical flexibility. Nothing woo, no fluff, just pretty streamlined, barebones direct H2H.

    The regular Army troops here, lots of them are doing the MACP (tip o'the hat to SFC Larson -- saw a couple of your DVDs on the shelf at Clothing Sales the other day) and having lots of fun doing it.
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    The aforementioned *SF buddy* was in 1/10th SFG last time I talked to him...can't see him rolling in the gym, though. You know many of those guys? This world coulda just gotten a little bit smaller.
    Matthew Snowden
    -The only way to learn is be aware and hold on tight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shieldcaster
    The aforementioned *SF buddy* was in 1/10th SFG last time I talked to him...can't see him rolling in the gym, though. You know many of those guys? This world coulda just gotten a little bit smaller.
    Not personally, but they're in and out of here training periodically. Strange as it sounds, my wife knows a few of 'em (shaddup, you). She runs the massage/bodywork/Rolfing practice here and some of those guys (and the Europe-based SEAL team) are sort of regulars when they come through here.

    I've recently put in for a job at their home base here and might get a chance to get know 'em better.

    cg
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    To bring this ancient thread more up-to-date...

    Col. George Bristol has an essay on the creation of MCMA in "Budo Perspectives," vol. 1, ed. by Alexander Bennett (Auckland, 2005). I haven't done a side-by-side comparison, but it struck me as being similar to a paper that then-Lt. Col. Bristol published in Marine Corps Gazette in July 2001. I mention this because Marine Corps Gazette recently put its back issues online for subscribers. Also take a look at page 54 of the November 2006 edition, as it has a couple paragraphs describing training with A.J. Drexel Biddle ca. 1938. PS -- Regarding the book "Budo Perspectives," Professor Bodiford has (as usual!) an excellent essay, and probably you would also appreciate the essays by Karl Friday, Meik Skoss, and other authors included therein. Not light reading, by any stretch of the imagination (this is Prof. Bodiford writing for Prof. Friday, after all), but it is very educational.

    When looking online for ancestors of the current US military CQB programs, useful keyword searches include: < Risher Thornberry > , < Allan Corstorphin Smith >, < FM 21-150 >, < W.E. Fairbairn >, < A.J. Drexel Biddle > (hint -- you're looking for Tony Sr. rather than Tony Jr.), < Navy V-5 wrestling >, and < judo "Strategic Air Command" > . For a bibliography, take a look at the article "Combatives" in "Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia," ed. by Thomas A. Green (2001). NOTE: US military interest in Asian martial art forms dates to at least 1904-1905, when both the US Military Academy and the US Naval Academy considered adding judo to their curriculum.

    For background to MCMAP and the slightly earlier (ca. 1994-1995) (and entirely unrelated) 75th Ranger Battalion programs, I immodestly recommend my essay "Martial Arts Meet the New Age: Combatives in the Early Twenty-first-Century American Military," ed. by Thomas A. Green and Joseph R. Svinth (2003).

    And, FWIW, I have seen photos of UFC members providing training to Marines on Okinawa. Nonetheless, a more fundamental source of inspiration is actually "First Earth Battalion," the aforementioned New Age US Army think-tank project which in turn led to the implementation of Trojan Warrior Project in Special Forces, which in turn provided the background to Richard Strozzi Heckler's book, "In Search of the Warrior Spirit," which in turn inspired Gen. James L. Jones, 32nd Commandant of the Marine Corps, to hire Mr. Heckler as one of the trainers for MCMAP. For other (and often much zanier) influences of First Earth Battalion on the US military, see Jon Ronson's book, "The Men Who Stare at Goats," reviewed at http://www.jonronson.com/goats_nytimes.html for details.

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    A friend sent me this book while I was deployed to Baghdad with the 1st Cav in 2004-2005. Although I found the book interesting to read, I pretty much think its full of crap as far as warrior ethos type stuff and real combat goes. I would also like to add that Aikido is pretty much left out of the Army Combative program, the Army's comparative program to the MC Martial Arts program.
    Darrell Kaiser

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    Default EST/Landmark Forum

    Strozzi-Heckler clearly has a big influence from EST/Landmark education. I could tell by reading his book, since I have a few friends who did the training and so I'm familiar with the lingo.

    I am not a big fan of EST/Landmark, and to me, it detracted from Strozzi-Heckler's credibility. I can't really see aikido as he taught it as useful.
    Tim Fong

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    From the outside--as in, from my limited exposure to classroom Aikido--I have not been able to figure out why at any point anyone was trying to drill Aikido into any bred-for-war close quarters hand-to-hand system. Especially when there is accessible systems that more or less tend to run along the same lines as Aikido--as far as techniques go--that were bred for combat. Maybe I'm putting too much weight on the anchor I believe a technique's philosophical foundation has, or maybe it's not the best idea to drag a reasonably *not intentionally combat oriented* system into combat.

    I really need to get a hold of this book. Not for the sake of trying to work out the author's point of view or perspective, but for the sake of getting a little more information about sanctioned combat systems in the modern military and their relation (if any) to older systems. Swiping away all internal aspects of a facsimiled art for the sake of combat effectiveness might indeed make for a great foundation for a new system...but I'd be curious to look into sponsored ans sanctioned systems that were brought in specifically for the internal substructure.

    In my opinion, non-internalized systems are not systems at all, they're shells that could eventually be filled with any number of quirks or strengths without prior and proper designation of a solid internal foundation. Combat effectiveness notwithstanding.

    Not that anyone wants beret-wearing fighters to have much along the lines of an internal ethos that is not printed on cards or key chains for them to remember...Or, maybe I'm wrong. I would like to know if I'm wrong. Now or at any point in the recent past.

    It appears that the systems that are being sponsored, adopted and adapted by modern combat forces in the West have only nominally maintained any sort of internal foundation for the techniques that are firehosed into trainees at the various schools. But, hopefully I'm clueless.

    Any references in either case would be greatly appreciated.
    Matthew Snowden
    -The only way to learn is be aware and hold on tight.

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    Matt --

    My discussion of the history of CQB in general is in "Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia" ed. by Thomas A. Green (2001). Check your library -- it's out of print, but was intended for the library trade.

    My discussion of the history of the current (to 2002) US military programs appears in "Martial Arts in the Modern World," ed. by Green and Svinth (2003). It's still in print. During the preparation of that article, I corresponded with Mr. Heckler, Col. Bristol, and then SSG Larsen, so I believe that it is reasonably accurate in its details.

    Bibliographies are included with these articles.

    And FWIW, I concur with your observation that armies generally are NOT too interested in developing what Heckler termed self-actualized individuals. Ralph Peters used to write on this sort of thing, back when he was being poohpoohed for saying that the US military should start planning for wars fought in Third World cities. See, for example, "Our Soliders, Their Cities," at http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/P...ing/peters.htm .

    The transition from Second/Third Generation warfare into Fourth may require exactly this change. The Strategic Corporal initiative conceivably represents a tiny, tiny step in this direction. General Krulak coined the term, and the Marines are still interested in it, but doctrinally, the Australians seem to be paying as much attention to the idea as anybody. (E.g., some, but not much, except perhaps for small units of specialists, a definition which would of course include any SF unit that cared -- or was ordered -- to devote time and money to such projects.) See, for example, http://www.defence.gov.au/army/lwsc/...5_liddy_15.pdf .

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    Joe,

    Holy cow! Goldmine. Thanks a million for the leads. Those will no doubt help to answer some questions...and create a few more.

    Domo,

    Matt.
    Matthew Snowden
    -The only way to learn is be aware and hold on tight.

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