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Thread: Should You Look To Your Sensei As A Spiritual Leader; Putting Sensei on a pedestal

  1. #1
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Default Should You Look To Your Sensei As A Spiritual Leader; Putting Sensei on a pedestal

    First of all, many people who take the martial arts often look at a Sensei as a spiritual leader is a Sensei really suppose to be something like a Rabbi, Shaman, Rev., Priests, etc.?

    It seems people in the western martial arts place a Sensei on a spiritual leader on a pedestal? I realize a Sensei takes a father type role in Japan. But that is more mechanical in terms of welfare of the students, and the responsibility of the Sensei. But that is far below the idea that the Sensei is a spiritual guide and leader that should be venerated and often responded as holy men for their wisdom-which seems to happen in the west.

    Does anyone know why? Or can explain it? Does it happen in Japan?

    And what is the true role of a Sensei as conceived by the Japanese?

  2. #2
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Default Forget what I said above, leave it open ended.

    I just thought, now, it may be more interesting if the question was more open ended. Say, why are Senseis looked upon as spiritual leaders. The words "spiritual" is open to interpretation.

    This thought came about viewing other martial arts school where the students followed the Sensei around like a obeient puppy dogs, and were almost obsessed with the Sensei- HERO Worship. They where collecting on every word uttered by the Sensei from martial arts to personal counseling advice like pearls. Of course this happens on various levels and degrees, but it is something I find odd.

  3. #3
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    My sensei is my friend and a mentor, but i'll tell him when I disagree with him, and he knows it and respects it.

    Pedestals just give people nosebleeds from being up so high.
    Rob Thornton

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    I would suspect any such type of sensei as attempting to run a cult. Such BS is for weak willed individuals.

    Harvey Moul

    Fish and visitors stink after three days - Ben Franklin

  5. #5
    n2shotokai Guest

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    When I was considerably younger, I put my sensei on a pedestal. I ended up with major dissapointment. Through life experiences I found the fault was my own. We are all human and we all make mistakes. As an instructor, I get very concerned when I see my younger students getting that goofy "you're awesome" look. That is when I do something very goofy, to let them know I am just like them and that we should learn from each other. When a student makes comments that make me nervous (compliments) I immediately stop whatever I am doing and divert the attention to them and find a way to build them up.

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    I tend to agree with Steve that when your respect and admiration for your Sensei turns to putting him or her on a pedestal you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
    There is a small essay on the Sensei by Bob Dalgleish that I have always enjoyed.

    -----------------------------------------

    Sensei
    by Bob Dalgleish Sensei

    The relationship of a Sensei to the dojo is very difficult to define, as it encompasses many varying aspects of life. The Sensei must flow through the student in many levels of communication and reach to the far corners of the student's life. A Sensei is sometimes a father and also at times, even a mother, an advisor, chastiser. A Sensei, though different, is the same as everyone else. He is human in a controlled way and deserves respect for he has traveled long upon the Do (way).

    A Sensei should be a good teacher by conveying at the correct time the appropriate knowledge in the best possible way and manner to the student and must be able to see the student and their problems as they never can - impartially. A Sensei shows no favour, indeed as progression is attained, he becomes harder on those that progress. He is kind but firm to the beginner on the path.

    A Sensei advises, in an appropriate manner, in the inner spiritual aspects of the art and always a friendly ear, who listens properly as they tend to categorize him into either a teacher or a friend. He is neither, but both and more. He sees a student in a free way, unmoved by external face or appearance and helps in the best way befitting a student. If this is to be hard, he is so, to be soft, then he is so. But always in the best manner for the student, for the Sensei's heart is forever with them.

    Often a Sensei may test his students by taking views diagrammatically opposed to theirs and then study their reactions. Silence is often the best form of praise that a Sensei will give to his students. He will note what affects the students in and out of the dojo, how he acts to his friends, his family, his work and will act upon the students accordingly.

    The Sensei will put forth untruths to see if they are accepted, say nothing when he should speak volumes. He is king when there is no apparent reason. He may be tyrannous or compassionate, but through all these externals, his heart is still for them. He listens when they speak but can see the inner reasons for their speech, he is unmoved but can move. The Sensei is forever active, even in a subdued way. He gives while others take and asks no rewards save proficiency of mind and body. He is sad, sometimes happy, let down and often abused, but forever holds the way, for that is his life.

    Though outsides may change, the Sensei does not, though he can adapt at will completely, the inward ideals and principles are always there. He persists when there are no apparent reasons. That is why he is a Sensei. On the average, it takes 2000 students to produce one worthwhile Sensei.

    If you have one, take care of him!
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Bill Ecklund

    "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought." - Basho

  7. #7
    poonagan Guest

    Default This thread hits home

    My X sensei belongs to the osho movement. The more I found out about this movement the more I realized I was in a cult like atmosphere. She is very controling. Would ease drop on your conversitions. Punish you (cold sholder treatment) when you did something she didn't approve of. Let it be known she was veg head. Work parties at her home in the woods would be open to you as long as you didn't eat meat. Her boyfriend who likes the ladies, gets away with things that other students would be expelled for.
    I think she enjoys the Guru want to be position. www/ osho eastern cults.com I don't see that demand for respect at other dojos. The other thing is, she is probably one of the best instructors in the west. You can try and hide it, but you teach what you are.

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    I refer to my sensei as someone I can talk to. Someone I can seek to for advice and wisdom when I need it. That's one of the first things I look for in a school, how comfortable I feel around the instructor and how comfortable I can talk to them.

    Jon
    Jonathan Wood

  9. #9
    Jerry Johnson Guest

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    Originally posted by Chrono
    I refer to my sensei as someone I can talk to. Someone I can seek to for advice and wisdom when I need it. That's one of the first things I look for in a school, how comfortable I feel around the instructor and how comfortable I can talk to them.

    Jon
    Nothing personal, Jon. You just happen to say something I am going to key into, and platform off.

    This is exactly what I mean. The key word is "wisdom" then next is it a property that is desired in a Sensei. The second element is the Sensei is easy to talk to. Combine this and you are looking for whom? A Sensei as spiritual and or personal guide.

    Why do we look for that and value it? Why do we think a Sensei has wisdom, or should? What archatype of any, does a Sensei become a wiseman who we need to confide in and trust in? Sensei's are not traditionally spiritual leaders. When did this element come into play and why does the dynamic between some students and Senseis exist. Is it too much Karate Kid?

  10. #10
    n2shotokai Guest

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    Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
    [i]Why do we think a Sensei has wisdom, or should? What archatype of any, does a Sensei become a wiseman who we need to confide in and trust in? Sensei's are not traditionally spiritual leaders. When did this element come into play and why does the dynamic between some students and Senseis exist. Is it too much Karate Kid?
    When I was younger I needed direction, so I looked for wisdom and direction from my sensei.

    At 46 years old I found myself in the position where I was the highest ranking practitioner of my original style in my state (that I am aware of). I decided I needed to expand and increase my knowledge. I felt my weakness was in kata, so I searched for an instructor who had that strength. I am now friends with that sensei and we support each another.

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    Why do we think he has wisdom? I'm not sure. Perhaps, all those movies ingrained the idea into my head. Personally, he has more experience than I do, so I just seek his wisdom based on them.

    Jon
    Jonathan Wood

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    Default .

    Hero worshipping is not only applicable to Japan ..

    I've seen a lot of it in Systema, especially the Mikhail Robkyo.. (and before anyone says it yes I trained with them for about 3 months).

    Its definetly a cultish art - especially with the Russain Orthodox conversion routines rammed down your thought (and how all other religions are wrong and devil worshipping !)

    They really hate Bujikan as being "black arts" and "devil worshipping" - which I dont mind but its only the people who have not trained in it are spouting this nonsense ...

    Sorry enough of my rant !
    Graham Barrett, London

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