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Thread: You can't use knockouts in a real engagement!

  1. #16
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    "Real fights" are actually really easy to train for- just get real good at throwing fast and accurate techs. Oh, and use those kyuusho points like the point of the chin, the solar plexus, the eyes.....oh gee- did I get logical or something......

    Getting a clean shot- thats what combos are for.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  2. #17
    Troll Basher Guest

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    I don’t know where all this one/no touch kyusho mumbo jumbo came from....maybe a “Dillmanite” thing.
    Again I think folks have taken a concept that is quite viable in “real world” application and made something ridiculous out of it.

    What is a pressure point/kyusho point?
    How about the outside of the thigh about half way down or just above the knee on the inside of the knee. Those are 2 fine pressure point/kyusho points that any Thai kickboxer will use and in some cases even win a fight by.
    My good friend and sometimes training partner is trying to break into K-1 via Nicholas Petas’ dojo. At 6'5" and 285lbs (not much fat either) he is rather big and in his first fight got hit in the above mentioned points and had severe pain for about 1 week. He lost the fight on points but said had he stayed in any longer his legs would have given out.
    Peter Aerts of K-1 kicked an opponent in the side of the neck once and KOed him, although that is not a pressure point/kyusho point as claimed by some, it was effective.
    My point......the popular Karate Rag-Mag version of pressure point/kyusho as practiced by fat slobs with beer guts that give off enough shade I could park my Caddy under is highly suspect, however, if trained in a realistic manner pressure point/kyusho points can be helpful in real world fights.

  3. #18
    Gene Williams Guest

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    There is a difference between striking pressure points with full power kicks and punches where hydrostatic shock is much of the effect and tapping or merely pressing them like some try to do.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: I'M KO'D

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Goju Man
    [B]Gene, you ca go on tour with that one and start an ogaization where a lot of fat, out of shape guys with improperly tied obis will pay you big money.


    Fat out of shape guys with poorly tied Obis??!! Sign me up. We could call the Organization the Butter Ball Bujinkan!! Or the Shao Lard Monks!!

    Stanley Neptune

  5. #20
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    Default Strikes

    There is a difference between striking pressure points with full power kicks and punches where hydrostatic shock is much of the effect and tapping or merely pressing them like some try to do.
    Agreed Gene. Thai boxers hit kyusho points to the legs. The chin can aso be considered a kyusho point I guess. But in thai matches, it takes more than one strike. In boxing, karate or even street fighting, it is sometimes an accumulation of strikes that accomplish a given result. But the myth of hitting a point, followed by another specific point and the like is not realistic.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  6. #21
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Manny, Looks like everybody wants an easy way. Fighting is hard, mean, sweaty, inexact at times, and requires stamina, strength, and smarts. Worthy opponents don't go down because you hit them hard once or twice and maybe draw some blood. Ali fought nine rounds with a broken jaw, remember? There are some tough guys out there, not necessarily martial artists, who take some fighting to put down. All you pressure point guys are dreaming if that is all you've got.

  7. #22
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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    Manny, Looks like everybody wants an easy way. Fighting is hard, mean, sweaty, inexact at times, and requires stamina, strength, and smarts. Worthy opponents don't go down because you hit them hard once or twice and maybe draw some blood. Ali fought nine rounds with a broken jaw, remember? There are some tough guys out there, not necessarily martial artists, who take some fighting to put down. All you pressure point guys are dreaming if that is all you've got.
    Amen brother. And it takes sweat, blood and tears in training with basic, proven techniques. But let's face it, it's much easier to attend a seminar.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  8. #23
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    Thumbs down Knockouts & Dillman...

    Hello everyone,
    When first I started to learn Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu 18 years ago, I too didn't believe that such techniques were real, or useful in a real
    self defense situation. After about a dozen times that my teacher,
    Stan Hart of Mansfield, Ohio,(www.hakuda.com),made my knees buckle and my head so dizzy that I couldn't get up--I decided to train hard and during my six years of lessons with him--learned to believe in it. Stan learned the proper way from his teacher, Seiyu Oyata after many years of study. The REMEDIAL portrayal that Dillman does is based upon attending a few seminars,a total training period of 18 months!!! To most self defense/martial arts styles--this is a yellow or green belt level of training--obviously still at a REMEDIAL level. No one in his right mind would accept a green belt's skill level to be held in high respect/credulous to properly represent a self defense system's technique, such as Kyusho Jitsu. This, along with Mr. Oyata's words directly said to me in 1988/89 that Dillman "No know Tuite, only come to seminar" obviously shows that Dillman is not a good example of Kyusho Jitsu and thus should not be used to judge what's correctly performed techniques.(See Ken Allgeier's post above and the wesite post from Robert Roussolet, another student of Seiyu Oyata.
    When Kyusho is applied correctly--it gives shocks to muscles in a manner which causes the body to react in pain/relax--whether it be applied to the attacker's arm,neck, stomache side, face, etc...
    I prefer to call it a "shocking method" not a guaranteed Knock out.
    As Mr.Oyata taught Stan and Stan repeated to me--when you hit an attacker with this technique--it should make them feel that "they just put their finger in a light socket" --this is how I felt after Stan would apply it on my body, as well as when Mr.Oyata did it to me, as well as when I've done it to some of my students.
    The "K.O." hype is used by Dillman to simply attract money from people who have never felt it from Seiyu Oyata or his students.
    Please consider my message and when you judge Kyusho Jitsu, as decended from Mr.Oyata--please don't use Dillman to be the example.
    Best regards to all,
    Joe Logue


    arm

  9. #24
    Gene Williams Guest

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    I am familiar with Oyata and his students in Ryukyu Kempo and they are quite competent martial aertists. But, there is absolutely no resemblance between them and idiots like Dillman, et al. They are a traditional Okinawan ryu, practice kata and applications, and do not rely upon mickey mouse showtime techniques to get an audience. They use lots of atemi, as well, and direct it towards pp. My impression is that what they are actually doing is more like Japanese jujutsu than kyusho as it is being discussed here.

  10. #25
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    Smile Just a clarification on Tuite/Kyusho...

    I just wanted to say thanks Gene for your complementary witness to our art. Also Gene, I just want to clarify that with the self defense techniques that I've learned through the katas, about 50% are the grappling or "Japanese Jujitsu" type of movements--(but are absolutely not 'joint locking' techniques), the other 50% directly from the katas are the strikes/shocking techniques. These strikes are well hidden in the katas and are not shown as much in seminars or to beginner students of the "method", thus I can understand your impression with the art being mostly grappling with a few "atemi" strikes thrown in.
    I am posting here because one of teachers in the U.S. from whom the words "Kyusho Jutsu" was made famous is Seiyu Oyata--unfortunately also Dillman tries to appear to be authoritative/authentic in Kyusho Jutsu by naming Mr. Oyata as one of his teachers--"inspired by Seiyu Oyata"--I believe is written in his Tuite and Kyusho "books". Thus I feel it necessary to clarify that Dillman's REMIDIAL portrayal of Mr. Oyata's Kyusho Jutsu is Not what we practice. The hogwash of precisely hitting "pressure points" and "quarter sized" nerve/vital points is not what 50% of Mr. Oyata's method is all about. I totally agree with the previous posts here that in a real situation, one can't find these little "points" quickly and efficiently. The "Dillman Method" of Kyusho is not our method.
    Thus, when people judge the ability to use "Kyusho Jutsu" in a real panic/self defense situation, using Dillman as a base example is going to be very misleading. In my own,personal opinion, it's better to use the term "Dillman Method of pressure point striking" than to use the authentic Oyata based term of "Kyusho Jutsu" in this or other discussions as it reflects incorrectly back upon our method of self defense--especially for those not like Gene who haven't actually seen or experienced Mr. Oyata's Kyusho Jutsu.
    Sorry to interupt again, but I just wanted to clarify this.
    Best regards,
    Joe Logue

  11. #26
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Hey Joe, There was a guy named Logue in S.C. who taught Ryukyu Kempo. Oyata came to his dojo back in the late 70's and we went to the workout. Good stuff! Are you kin to him?

  12. #27
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    Default Ko's

    Joe, I don't know of Oyata first hand to comment of him. Of course you've felt "shocked" when certain techniques are applied to you. Take into consideration that you are in a controlled atmosphere and a cooperating uke. I have performed similar "shocks" in many classes also, it's really not rocket science. If you want to stand there and let me softly stimulate a few locations on your body, I could produce similar effects. However, sometimes it is just not tha easy to strike these points as they are shown. That being said, pp do have their place in combat, as long as we're not talking about the L1 followed by H4 and so on.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  13. #28
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    Default Answers to Gene & Manny:

    Gene--No, I am not kin to Jim, just a coincidence on the last name.
    I've met him before, very nice guy and is an excellent teacher of Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu--a direct, top level student of Seiyu Oyata.
    Manny--Unlike the REMEDIAL training that Dillman shows on his tapes and seminars, we NEVER train without a realistic, uncooperating "UKE".The word "UKE", as taught to me by Stan Hart, refers to someone who is trying to block/obstruct/stop your technique
    from succeeding--not to just stand there like a zombie as many
    train today.
    This is another reason I've posted here--once again--please don't confuse our techniques & training methods with those of Dillman, or
    other "Great Masters".
    Sincerely,
    Joe Logue

  14. #29
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    Default Remedial

    Joe, I respect your position on the subject. I don't know how much or often or what you guys do. My personal opinion, and it's just that, my opinion is that too much emphasis is placed on pp and good ole fashion basic techniques, (which are by far the most successful) are often overlooked or under worked in liu of these techniques. I think Shotokan proved this point, as well as Judo did by removing the "deadly" techniques and working on the others. This is no dis respect to you or your dojo.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  15. #30
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    Default (Beating a dead horse...last clarification...)

    Manny, et al,
    I totally agree with Manny. One may ask how can I do that and
    still practice our PP techniques??? Answer--we don't practice modern striking, or Dillman-like techniques to "Pressure Points,or to Chi/Ki lines/flows, or to little 'DILLMAN DOTS' painted on arms, or nerve points, or Acupressure/Acupuncture points". We practice the bio-mechanical,efficient movements in order to shock and contract the attacker's muscles with a proper snapping motion found in all
    of the classical Okinawan katas.
    What WE practice has absolutely nothing to do with the above mentioned "PP" or related methods. We don't retract our arm first and then try to hit a Pressure Point hard. Mr. Oyata taught Stan a very valuable saying, which he passed onto me--"Don't try to be stronger than him,just make him weaker than you". If you don't understand this ancient, hidden method,I'll ask you to do two things--first--pay money to the "Master" George Dillman and go to his seminar. Volunteer to be hit, see if he first retracts, hits you hard and then grabs you, or his students grab you immediately and ask you if you're "all right" and ask you if you want "to lay down", as if you don't have the ability to balance by yourself after receiving the great Dillman hit.
    If you don't see any difference in the hit that you've received from the hits you've received before in other MA systems--then do the second step and go to one of Mr.Oyata's or his students' seminars, receive a strike and then post the results on this thread.
    Afterwhich, you may see a bit more clearly why I also don't believe
    in "Pressure Point" techniques in a real self defense stuation.
    I guess that's the total beginning and end of it on my part.
    Have fun experiencing the difference!!!
    Joe Logue

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