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Thread: You can't use knockouts in a real engagement!

  1. #31
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    Manny, I think you and Joe are closer on this topic than you think.

    I too practice in a way that Joe describes his practice. The atemi waza is effective even if the "point" is not directly and perfectly hit. Also, slashing types of impact, as with a tekatana (Robert, is that the proper term?) has the benefit of rolling/twisting muscle in a certain direction causing tears/involuntary contraction, which not only affects the agonist but also the antagonistic muscle groups. As previously mentioned, any strike to the common peroneal or sciatic nerves can be accomplished with a blocking movement, not necessarily an attacking movement.

    This is also true of judo; I had a very large opponent attempt to throw me with haraigoshi. My defense was of course to lower my hips, and I also toed-in to a sanchindachi, which caused my training opponent to crash into my knees. The impact to the back of his leg along a nerve caused him to collapse, unable to stand for about five minutes.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  2. #32
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    Jeff, there are many points that are vulnerable on the body. But, if your weapons are not well trained, you can know those and a thousand more which will not serve you. I prefe to train the weapons of which to inflict damage, and strike where I can. Too many people forget the kicking and punching training because it takes a lot of work and sweat. Now, I am not saying this about Joe, it is just a general statement I've noticed about many other schools. There are many karate ka who train very hard, they usually will find those spots very quickly.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  3. #33
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    Manny, I agree, and I bet Joe does too.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  4. #34
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    Regarding not hitting the "spot" as done in the "color by kyusho" dojo.....In Mr. Oyata's dojo a lot of emphasis has been place on makiwara training on both hands and feet as well as using a type of wooden man dummy for conditioning the forearms, striking heavy bags (300 lbs. or more).
    When Mr. Oyata did a forearm block on me once I thought my arm was going to break.....no doubt it was the result of the above mentioned conditioning... there was no need for him to hit any p.point. I think he could have hit it any place and it would have hurt like hell. Using pressure points after such conditioning is just a bonus if you ask me. Either way, doing light little tippy taps is not what kyusho or atemi is about. When you strike you need to do it with the intent of "rocking their world".

  5. #35
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    Default Agreed

    Jeff, you are probably right. I think the kind of training that Robert speaks of is probably what many karate systems were all about. Hard training, body conditioning and solid fundamentals are what gets it done. A block is also a strike, a philosophy I trained by for a long time. It wasn't what pp I would hit, but rather what ever I did hit was going to hurt good.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  6. #36
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    Manny and Robert,

    Any place on the body struck hard enough is going to be a "pressure point" to the recipient of the blow!

    Robert, nice to see you around still. What you said reminds me of a few (and far between) sensei I have had the "pleasure" of receiving their blows. Those old guys could kick me in the leg hard enough to "trigger" pp's on top of my skull! Is Mr. Oyata's wooden dummy similar to the ones used in wing tsun? Does he drill it in the same manner as the wing tsun folks?

    Manny, I still don't know when I will be down to Miami. Will keep you posted.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  7. #37
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    Jeff, hope you can make it. You are right about the whole body kind of being a pp. That's where the good ole KARATE training comes in.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  8. #38
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    Originally posted by Jeff Cook
    Is Mr. Oyata's wooden dummy similar to the ones used in wing tsun? Does he drill it in the same manner as the wing tsun folks?

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu
    I never saw the one he used in Okinawa. The one he uses in the US is basically some baseball bats ( the fat parts )sticking out of a post.
    From what I gather it was used in a similar fashion to wing chun. However, it was also used to "hard" conditioning as well. This meant it was basically struck with the forearm instead of just "hooking" it as some folks do.
    His makiwara was a 4x4, none of this tapered crap either, top to bottom was 4x4........I have never seen a 4x4 bend so far from being hit!

    (BTW Jeff, I am working for "you guys" now (ARMY right?) I got moved from my nice "cushy" Marine base to an Army base here in Japan)

  9. #39
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    Damn. There goes the neighborhood! I just came off of a one year Op Noble Eagle deployment at an air force base. Those air force people know how to live!

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  10. #40
    Gene Williams Guest

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    First thing the Air Force does when they arrive in a combat zone is pave over everything and put in an officer's club and a pool

  11. #41
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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    First thing the Air Force does when they arrive in a combat zone is pave over everything and put in an officer's club and a pool
    .......and a golf course!

  12. #42
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    Originally posted by Jeff Cook
    Damn. There goes the neighborhood! I just came off of a one year Op Noble Eagle deployment at an air force base. Those air force people know how to live!

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu
    I was TDY on Yokota Air base and had a 3 bedroom Apt., 2 baths, 4 TVs, a washer and dryer etc.. all to myself.....funny thing is they (AirFarce guys) felt sorry for me. I was in heaven though! When I was on Iwakuni Marine Corp Air Station I was put in the BOQ and that was a room, a bed, a toliet and a small TV....and they (Marines) were jealous because I was livin' so high on the hog!

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    First thing the Air Force does when they arrive in a combat zone is pave over everything and put in an officer's club and a pool
    When I got to Rhein Main AFB, I thought man this is gonna be cool. A week later, I got to the Army base. I knew then and there I enlisted in the wrong one.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by Goju Man
    When I got to Rhein Main AFB, I thought man this is gonna be cool. A week later, I got to the Army base. I knew then and there I enlisted in the wrong one.
    Air Farce folks assigned to an Army base get a housing allowance because it is considered "sub-standard".......hell I wonder what they would get if they stayed ona Marine base!........probably a net set of golf clubs with a matching caddy!

  15. #45
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    Well, the USAF put us in contract housing off base; the digs were better than my home of record! They actually cancelled that contract because they felt the apartments were substandard.

    I gotta say the chow is quite a bit better as well. Not quite as good as Navy mess, but pretty close. Heck, lots of times I have passed up an Army hot meal in favor of an MRE. At least I knew my chances of catching salmonella were less with the MRE.

    I guess we are drifting a bit off topic?

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

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