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Thread: You have one year to prepare for a duel.

  1. #16
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    Chris, it's totally cool. Your honest response is exactly what I'm looking for. I disagree with almost every point you made, but it's exactly what I'm asking for.

    Have you ever trained in a koryu before? Even if you haven't, what about them would better prepare one for a duel, do you think?


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  2. #17
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    Default Train this....

    Charlie,

    I just don't think you get (what I see as) the true spirit of budo. If I were getting ready to duel in one year, I'd spend the year fully engaged in licentious aerobic (for training, of course) sex with every good looking woman I could. I'd drink, smoke, and eat whatever I want. I'd joke with my friends, spend time with my family, and play with my dog. When the time comes to duel, I need just one cut. I'll die, you'll die, or both of us will die. Since the likely outcomes are two out of three that I will not make it, I am not going to waste my time training with a bunch of folks who will not let me party and enjoy myself while I get stronger, quicker, and "ready." I am going to spend my year living hard and then I will kill my enemy. Simple as that, whether I live or not. Charlie, you'd be a dead man if you spent your time getting ready. You should always be ready! Best of luck in your training. I think it's an ignorant question although probably meant to be cute. I realize that playing with swords in modern times in the USA is usually pretty much Fantasy Land and my imagination is as good as anybody's. But there are real, serious life lessons to be learned from kendo and other budo, provided, of course, that one has the discernment to see them and the will (or discipline) to apply them. Dream on, Mr Miyagi will train you to fight bad guys. Sorry about the tone of this post, but somehow, this type of question really bugs me.
    Ian McDonald
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    The swamps are good along the WeekiWachee

  3. #18
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    Neil:

    I agree with you. So you're saying if you had, say, seven years to train for the duel, perhaps iaido would be just as well? Or something similar? [/B]
    Pretty much. In all honestly, having done kendo and MJER iaido, I see huge merit in both. I don't know about specific time frame, but let's think on bigger terms for the sake of argument--20 or 30 years. A person who's trained in iaido, kendo, kenjutsu... would anyone really want to say one was that much more superlative than another? Really at that point, I think, it would become a question (and was in back in the day) of character and how disciplined and sincere the person trained in his chosen art, not which art was better.

    I realize you're asking a hypothetical question as well, with all things being equal, but I must also point out that how many hours a week one trained in that year, what you focused on and perhaps most importantly, who your teacher is would have far more impact that what particular style you undertook.

    My earlier post, BTW, is simply me comparing where I was at the end of one year of iaido, one year of jodo and one year of kendo. Eight months into kendo training, I went to my first (and only so far) tournament and got a kote point right off the bat in my second match.* I compare this to the other two arts where, if I was lucky, I could point the tip towards my rear end and begenerally accurate 50 percent of the time. That's no slight on those arts either, particularly since I had years in other MA before taking up kendo, and was able to avoid many of the newbie mistakes.

    To reiterate, though, I agree with you. I think all the legitimate Japanese sword arts share a close brotherhood, particularly at the upper end of the spectrum, and I have found that Japanese sensei pretty much say the same thing--it's the gaikokujin exponents that want to break down, analyze and point out differences.

    Neil G.--you're right, as usual. Shinken would have been a better word. Token isn't necessarily wrong though, as in Nihongo Token Hakubutsukan.


    *the first match was lame, with a big guy who pushed me out of bounds twice to win on penalities... pathetic--he had more experience and reach and all he could do was push the small guy around.
    --Neil Melancon--

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    Default Re: Train this....

    Originally posted by Ian McDonald
    Sorry about the tone of this post, but somehow, this type of question really bugs me.
    Well, excuse the hell out of me!

    I said it was a juvenile question. I said it grew out of a specific context. The first part of your post was funny and thoughtful. Why did it turn so nasty?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    I'd spend the year learning to clear my mind and be at peace. Lots of meditation in addition to practical training. And I'd make sure to live my life to the fullest.

    For that practical training, I'd work at a koryu-type school that did full-intensity solo kata, kumitachi, as well as sparring with bokuto. I'd train for an hour or two every day, maybe a little longer every once in a while. I'd work on tameshigiri to check my cutting technique and to increase my speed.

    But mainly, I'd concentrate on the inner qualities that enable that kind of calm determination, that genuine "I will not fail, so you must be the one who dies" kind of presence that would unnerve any technically-proficient swordsman.

    All things being equal (terrain, luck, skill, speed, etc), it all boils down to who wants it more.

    Regards,
    Doug
    Take arrows in your forehead, never in your back.

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    At our school, which teaches classical kenjustu, we have devised padded swords that are almost exactly the same weight and such as real katana, and we spar with them regularly -- good solid cuts win -- not points. It is a very intense and educational method. This would be my preffered method of training, along with of course, technique training and kata. You need to balance the two. How can you win a duel with bad technique, and how can you win a duel with no sparring experience?...

    Amir Ali
    Amir Ali

  7. #22
    Ben Bartlett Guest

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    Well, somehow I doubt I'll ever find myself in this situation, but since we're being juvenile anyway, I may as well throw my two cents in.

    If we're talking about what would most increase your odds of winning, I basically agree with Chris, although I don't think kendo is the last thing I'd want to do. I think someone who did kendo would have better odds than someone who did nothing. Plus, it's a lot easier to find kendo than koryu (and it'd be kind of a shame if the only reason you went to the trouble of joining a koryu was that you were going to duel in a year ).

    OTOH, I kind of like the whole "keep enjoying your life for a year" answer several people gave. Frankly, I'm not so sure a year of training would help me enough to be worth it. Of course, I might train anyway, because I enjoy training (if "enjoy" is the right word for it).

    Oh, and I'd buy a very large life insurance policy. Hey, if I'm gonna bite it, may as well make sure my loved ones are well off after I go.

  8. #23
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    Charlie

    Yes, but that's something else that we could spend alot of time argueing about.

    Its not that I have any kind of beef with kendo--do like to argue.

    It would be more accurate to say that I have deep reservations about assumptions conerning "real" combat.

    As an example:

    In my case I have matched with some TKD friends--I also do Okinawan karate--they KNOW I'm going to kick them in the groin (controlled) which my style allows--but they spend so much time training and practicing for Olympic TKD they are almost NEVER prepared for it.

    To switch it around I have gotten nailed but good, the Olympic TKD don't break after points or flurries--I am used to doing so.

    Have scored a really good hit THEN DROPPED MY HANDS--just like they like to laugh at karate-ka for doing.

    We could set around all day (and have) argueing about if the blow was strong enough to keep the counter strike from ever taking place.

    Point is that to an extent both of us have an imprinted set of reflexs and we need to be reminded freq that they exsist.

    I would guess that it works the same way in other arts.

    I also tend to think that the best way to prepare for a duel would be to copy as close as possible the training methods of the guys that actually had a body count.

    If we were talking firearms, I would take advice from say Bat Masterson--or a vet with fire-fight experience.

    Would not start off with a guy that shoots tricked out "race" pistols" (no offense to those guys either)

    Nor would I inculde a champion paintballer.

    Chris Thomas

  9. #24
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    Ah-ha! In the time it took me to write up my response, there were about 8 more folks who made quicker posts (what can I say, I'm multi-tasking at work).

    Anyway, now I see the gist about kendo vs. other sword arts.

    Admittedly, I don't know a lot about kendo since I don't practice it. And I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. But it does seem to me that kendo tends to concentrate on aggression and speed to the exclusion of many other important aspects of good swordsmanship. And the few times I've seen kendo, in person as well as in movie clips, the exponents are using short, whippy-smacky techniques with a straight shinai which wouldn't make good cuts with a Japanese sword.
    If kendo were used to train for a true duel, I think it would need to be augmented (as Chris hinted at) with some realistic grappling in addition to learning to find targets of opportunity beyond do, kote, and men. At the very least, kendo would need to be used in conjunction with iai or kenjutsu.

    Regards,
    Doug
    Take arrows in your forehead, never in your back.

  10. #25
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    Charlie writes:
    "One year from now, you are going to fight an unarmored duel with katanas. How do you train for it? Assume your opponent is your equal in skill and experience and that time, terrain, etc. is not a factor."

    ::thinks:: hhhmmm... equal skill and experience...

    "Why wait?... make peace with your god and draw your sword... lets have at it!"

    If I feel we are basically the same in skill... and even if not... I wouldn't give the guy a year to prepare for it, study up on what I do and devise counters, I'd want to do it right now. I would never even agree to such an arrangement. If he's not willing to do it here and now then he shouldn't have said anything, and he's not worth my time. And... maybe we weren't equals after all.

    Is that too arrogant?
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  11. #26
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    Maybe. But I like the "let's just get it on" mindset!


    Regards,
    Doug
    Take arrows in your forehead, never in your back.

  12. #27
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    BTW... If I were to prepare for a year I wouldn't change anything in my training, I would just try to be better at what I already do... that's the point of training in the first place... though I would prolly focus on sword more.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  13. #28
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    Default Thread drift: shinken shobu

    I'm not even going to try for the original question but if you'll excuse a slight thread drift, I thought "shinken shobu" was an archaic term with hardly any currency...but one of the references to it in Draeger's book is ambiguous. But it simply doesn't happen nowadays, right? (yes I know it was a thought game, it's cool) Anybody have a historical last occurence of it? Isn't shinken shobu now a historical term only? Maybe it has philosophical layers, well I wouldn't know, for sure.

    I didn't think my question merited its own thread, but since it kind of came up...well, thanks.
    J. Nicolaysen
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    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

  14. #29
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    Default You REALLY want to do this? Well...

    A year before a duel. Let's imagine for just a moment that some kind of honor was at stake where you couldn't just snuff out the competition right there or sneak up on him or her before the duel. Let's also imagine that there are no spectators, press, police or any other distractions. Also, let's eliminate any advantage of environment and just rely on relatively equal skill for the time being. NOW here's what I'd do with my year:

    Every day for at least an hour, pray and meditate. Have a clear mind and LEARN HOW TO CLEAR THE MIND UNDER STRESS.

    Every day for at least an hour, aerobic exercise of some type - need to get the pulse down under physical stress.

    Every other day, 1000 draws, 1000 cuts, 1000 blocks/parries and 1000 resheathings WITH A SHINKEN. Burn them into your muscle memory. Do them outside in the sun, in the rain, snow, whatever, ignoring weather and light. Do them in complete darkness, ignoring sight. Do them in the dark with cotton in your ears and up your nose, depriving yourself of outside stimuli <sp>. Train the mind and body for the task as hand.

    Every night, play with your children, love/honor your spouse... in other words, make every night for the rest of your life something shared with family. Whether you survive or not, a part of you will die while if you survive, you will be reborn in a sense.

    Don't bother sparring, practicing any kendo or any other thing besides the above training... it's all gonna come down to intent, reaction time and muscle memory anyway. Don't neglect your responsibilities, because heck... you may win and now you have to face the creditors since you didn't pay your bills for a year.

    If you've spent a year waiting to die, you will. If you've spent a year training to live, you'll most likely live. If you've spent a year actually LIVING while you trained to be the one left standing, odds are you will make it.

    FWIW,

    Carlos
    E. Carlos Estrella, Jr.

    The strength of a man is not measured in how much he can lift, how many he can fight or how much he can endure, but in his capacity to admit his limitations and learn to successfully circumvent them.

  15. #30
    Mekugi Guest

    Default Re: You have one year to prepare for a duel.

    Simple answer: Do nothing.
    Then on the day of the tournament, bring a firearm to the duel walk straight up to them and shoot them dead.

    Drop all the "honor,valor and play by the rules" stuff and go for the reality that either way, if you kill them are going to go to jail. So, seeing that it doesn't really matter how you kill them, as long as it is you doing the killing, you'll still be alive (and in jail).

    How is that for a buzzkiller?

    -Russ

    OHH BTW...
    Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and a load of other Ryu use Fukurojinai. So it doesn't have to be "kendo".

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    Hypothetical situation.

    One year from now, you are going to fight an unarmored duel with katanas. How do you train for it? Assume your opponent is your equal in skill and experience and that time, terrain, etc. is not a factor. Simple question.I realize this is a juvenile fantasy. You don't have to participate if you don't want to. This thread grew out of the tsuki thread if you have questions. I am trying to "prove" a point.
    Last edited by Mekugi; 2nd April 2004 at 04:12.

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