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Thread: Katori Ryu Question

  1. #31
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    Mr. McCarthy,

    By passing along comments from "the local dojo gossip," that makes you a gossip as well, regardless of your intentions. They do not add to the value of the discussion, have no legitimacy or worth in themselves, and in fact make you look like you're out to "unecessarily perpetuate animosity."

    Sincerely,
    Cady Goldfield
    Cady Goldfield

  2. #32
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    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    ...Sincerely,
    Cady Goldfield
    On a lighter note, did you make it to the Japanese Garden?

    No need to reply here; I'll resurrect the Garden thread.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Unhappy No more gossip.....

    Ouchhhhh! I guess I deserved that....

    Apologies offered to all.

    Patrick McCarthy



    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Mr. McCarthy,

    By passing along comments from "the local dojo gossip," that makes you a gossip as well, regardless of your intentions. They do not add to the value of the discussion, have no legitimacy or worth in themselves, and in fact make you look like you're out to "unecessarily perpetuate animosity."

    Sincerely,
    Cady Goldfield

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    Mr. McCarthy,

    In your post, you said, that Sugino was "authorized to establish his own school by his direct TSKSR lineage-based teacher, Sheena Sensei."

    Can you differentiate for me between a soke and "direct TSKSR lineage-based teacher" for me, please? As far as my understanding goes, the only person who can give their blessing for teaching KSR is the Soke. Who is this Sheena Sensei, and why does his judgment take precedent over Soke?

    Also, no one from the Sugino schools has addressed the well-formed analogy between acquiring a Harvard degree and studying under a Harvard grad. Since you seem to be in contact with the Kawasaki people, what are their thoughts on teaching under the name "Katori Shinto Ryu" long after the only recognized teacher, Sugino, has passed away. Do they think that they don't require permission from the Soke to teach, or that they are the rightful linage holders? I know little about that school or what the commonly held beliefs are. Any input would be grateful.

    Ellis Amdur wrote:
    "That this was a matter of discourse among individuals outside the ryu should be a matter of embarassment to that ryu - and the responsibility lies with those senior Japanese - both in making the matter public and in their inability to behave in a way that fostered strength within the ryu rather than public factionalism."

    I find it hard to understand why gossip about KSR and the Mainline/Sugino issue by outsiders should be a point of embarrassment for the honbu. You use the word "factional dispute," as if there were two factions bickering amongst themselves, with neither one having a stronger claim to the lineage or proof of authenticity or authority than the other. As far as I know, the Sugino thing has never been a real issue within the school regardless of what you people make it out to be, as it is well understood that the current students of the man, may he rest in peace, have no claim whatsoever to the name. I am not sure what else there is to discuss. The fact that "senior Japanese shihan" or any other band of gossipers, regardless of how esteemed they are, engage in creative rumor-mongering about something that is none of their business, and the fact that you people are doing the exact same thing, has absolutely nothing to do with the integrity of the school or its beahvior, which is above reproach in my opinion. I am having difficulty understanding as to what kind of behavior you, Mr. Amdur, would expect of the school in this issue. Should the Soke, whose judgment is final and ultimate in matters where the school's name and lineage are at stake, somehow cross some kind of imaginary factional line and shake hands and recognize a rogue group that is knowingly using his property and kiss and make up, just so that folks like yourself can have closure on the matter? Or so that the school won't be "embarrassed" about the fact that it is the topic of gossip?
    You also state that ?gthey?h made the matter public and brought embarrassment to themselves. Can you clearly point out at which point the Shinbukan or honbu started this aggressive public relations campaign to use every instance of media coverage to plug that Sugino is a fraud or rogue? Of course, if someone interviews Otake Sensei and asks him the current status of Sugino?fs school, is he supposed to say ?gno comment?h and leave the matter in question just so there can be some image of solidarity? Or is he supposed to answer the question honestly and say that they are not authorized by Soke to teach and operate a KSR dojo? Does his answering that make him somehow accountable for the gossip that unfolds? I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

  5. #35
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    Mr. Mellis -

    Why is it an embarassment? That you ask the question is a surprise to me. In most of the ryu I have been involved in, both as participant and as guest, ryu politics and other such affairs are considered deeply private matters, and in the Japan I lived in, it was always a matter of extreme shame when private matters become public.

    You are parsing words in proposing that I mean that "factional dispute" means two equal groups bickering. My viewpoint on this issue is clear and published, with the permission of the soke and viewed before publication and approved by a senior member of the ryu.

    And as to your objection to what senior members I was referring to, why do you assume I meant the Shimbukan?

    I did not choose to go onto this message board with any further concern about this issue, which the ryu can deal with as it chooses. (I wrote a chapter of a book from a scholarly perspective, describing how TSKSR, as an exemplar of a koryu, manages itself in modern times, but I honestly don't care if Narita sinks into the sea tomorrow, and TSKSR sinks along with it to rot with the fishes at the bottom of the ocean.)

    What behavior am I asking the soke to do? I could care less. It's your ryu's problem, not mine. I don't give a rat's hind end about "closure" or how it reflects on you or your ryu. I spoke up to defend a friend's good name.

    That you accuse me of rumor-mongering here only illustrates how poorly you read my note.

    What should Otake have done? Izasa? Sugino? Your ryu, your problem. The options go from dojo yaburi (I know of a school - modern times - that solved such a problem in just this matter - the "factional" man never dared show his face in Tokyo again) to Hanmon (I know of a number of schools that have done this) to a sigh-and-bear it attempt to ignore the difficulties to your fantasies of a) I am suggesting either an aggressive media campaign of attack - saw that happen in one ryu, and this, too, deeply shamed the school - or that I desire that they kiss, make up and have closure (personally, I hate that psychological crap, and where you got that I desired such a thing is beyond me.).

    I'm spending far to long on this - but I suppose what would be a hard-core Japanese perspective, even if held by me, a foreigner, is this: I don't like people talking about my family, and my ryu is my family, and if someone associated with my family brings trouble to its name, this is an embarassment, even if I did nothing to cause it. If I'm not able to eliminate this embarassment, my family name is shamed. And from the Japanese perspective that I was "brought" up in, I am shamed even though it is not my "fault."

    That the Japan you live in is different is also a matter of no concern to me - except I like the values of the country I lived in far more.

    Ellis Amdur

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    Mr. Amdur,
    Your PM has been replied to.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

  7. #37
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    gmellis


    As I recall, and I may be in error.

    But as I understand it the Katori Ryu has in effect a "teaching" master and an "official" family head.

    Again, as I understand it, the family that carries on the name of the Katori founder has not practiced the style for several--or perhaps many generations.

    That the teaching duties and responsiblity for the passing on the tradion have been the responsibility of a number of non-family members. Such as Otake, Sheena, etc.

    So when you ask "who is this Sheena?" he would be the person that has the responsibilty of passing down the content of the ryu.
    Presumably at the bidding of the former Soke.

    As Otake acts for the current Soke.

    This "bifircation" is one of the things that makes this so complex.

    In this case the Soke "owns" (workable term) the name, content etc of Katori Ryu.

    So use of the name by others is not allowed without direct permission.

    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 13th April 2004 at 15:41.

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    Smile Sugino Yoshio

    Hmmm....FYI, I have little interest in most of what is being discussed here other than asserting what a wonderful man/teacher Sugino sensei was and making sure his name is not slandered (or ignored) here or else where.

    In addition to karate/kobudo (seperate lineage), I have been enjoying the practice and teaching of what took me years to learn under the watchful eye of the late master (Sugino), for a long time now, and have never require or asked any one's special permission to do it. If you or anyone else here has a problem with that, you're welcome to come to my dojo where we can sort it out in person.

    The rest of the bickering I'll leave to those of you concerned with the impeccable lineages and who's got what permission to teach who. Beyond thinking that a couple of you need to chill out.....I think you're wasting far too much energy on something which has already transpired and cannot be changed.

    Patrick McCarthy

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    Originally posted by gmellis
    Who is this Sheena Sensei
    Shiina Ichizo, was one of 4 people (the other three: Tamai Kisaburo, Ito Tanekichi and Kuboki Sozaemon) that taught Katori Shinto-ryu at the request from Kano Jigoro.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Pat

    Just to make sure were not getting off on the wrong foot here, my use of the term "direct permission" is more in the direction of technical rather than practical.

    As I understand it the head of the TSKSR actually "owns" the name, content, terms etc.

    Somewhat the way a person can "own" a patent on a product. And the concern expressed by the current members is somewhat like the company that owns Teflon--the use of the term means specific things and specific attributes.

    You can come up with a close chemical mimic--you just can't call it Teflon--or the folks in the DuPont legal dept will want to have little chat.

    If you want to call it Teflon--you need permission from DuPont.

    As I understand it Sugino did have permission to teach and to use the name.

    What gets murky is if the current headmaster can "undo" or
    retract permission given by the former headmaster.

    It also gets murky as to if Sugino's students also had permisson to use the name.

    To echo or paraphrase something I read here (Dave Lowery maybe??)--I think that most folks are less interested in the technical characteristics and more interested in the provenence (sp) of an art.

    Chris Thomas

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    That the teaching duties and responsiblity for the passing on the tradion have been the responsibility of a number of non-family members. Such as Otake, Sheena, etc.
    Just for clarification, the Shihan (teaching master if you will) before Otake Sensei was Hayashi Sensei. Yes, HAYASHI, not Sheena. While I'm sure this Sheena you refer to was a fine exponent, as far as I am aware, he has not the Shihan recognized by the Iizasa family to carry on the instruction ON BEHALF of said family. If someone has more information on this Mr. Sheena, I would love to hear about it. But as far as the record stands, this person was not the official torch-bearer on behalf of the Iizasa before Otake Sensei (until I am otherwise educated). Besides, not even a shihan has permission to hand out licenses and grant permission to teach without the authorization of the Soke anyway.

    So if not even Otake Sensei can pass down the teaching tradition BY DEFAULT without permission from the Soke, why would the current group of Sugino folks think that they could do so without even showing deference to the judgements of the current Soke, let alone letting themselves be absorbed into the legitmate mainline.

    Hmmm....FYI, I have little interest in most of what is being discussed here other than asserting what a wonderful man/teacher Sugino sensei was and making sure his name is not slandered (or ignored) here or else where.

    In addition to karate/kobudo (seperate lineage), I have been enjoying the practice and teaching of what took me years to learn under the watchful eye of the late master (Sugino), for a long time now, and have never require or asked any one's special permission to do it. If you or anyone else here has a problem with that, you're welcome to come to my dojo where we can sort it out in person.

    The rest of the bickering I'll leave to those of you concerned with the impeccable lineages and who's got what permission to teach who. Beyond thinking that a couple of you need to chill out.....I think you're wasting far too much energy on something which has already transpired and cannot be changed.
    Let us separate how wonderful of a man or how masterful the master was from the issue at hand. The character that a person is commonly believed to display has no bearing on the soundness or ethics of any given action on their part. You want to guard against slander on the part of your deceased teacher. I can applaud that. If you have seen slander or an ignoring of Sugino Sensei, please come forth and point out which statement or statements qualified as such.

    As for your not needing anyone's permission to practice an unrecognized brand of KSR, and your open invitation for a round of gentlemanly fisticuffs to anyone who cares to differ with you, I would hate to tread on your excercise of free will. The point is not whether or not you or anyone else has the FREEDOM to practice an art whose name is being wrongly used in open defiance. That fredom is yours to do as you wish. It is whether you have a MORAL OBLIGATION to desist or seek counsel with the mainline to discuss ETHICALITY of continuing in a rogue branch, and discuss solutions to the problem. Do you think that matters of ethics are solved through force and violence, and that your championing your cause through battle will somehow vindcate your decision to NOT identify with the authentic mainline? Am I flaming you by asking legitimate questions here Mr. McCarthy? I think not. They are legitimate questions and points that need answering by you or ANYONE who continues to identify with the Sugino group DESPITE knwowing that it is unrecognized. Whether you choose to face these points straight on or wave your hand in disgust and walk away self-satisified as if you are above it all, does in no way resolve the matter or answer the difficult questions, but merely delays them. To call it bickering is sophmorish.

    What if someone joined your school Mr. McCarthy. And let's say for the sake of argument that your unique style was called Patrick McCarthy-Ryu. (You see, Katori Shinto Ryu and Iizasa are interchangeable. It has been in the family so many hundreds of years, that using one is like using the other.)
    Now let's say you had a really good student. You gave him permission to teach a few students of his own. One student is really promising, so you give HIM permission to teach a few guys of his own, with the understanding that it's STILL your art and you call the shots because it's your name on the school. Suppose that twice-removed student grows increasingly independent and writes books and gives lectures and such on YOUR SCHOOL without asking you first? Moreover, let's say he dies and his students start using the name and spreading schools all across the globe using your name without 1) regularly visiting even just to show respect, 2) asking you permission to continue teaching and using the name after their teacher dies, 3) even just asking you, as the owner of the school, how you want to proceed in your relations with them.

    Does this help at all to put things in context for you. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu=Iizasa. For you to walk away from the table without addressing the issues at hand or pass them off as "over and done with, nothin we can do about the past," either out of refusal or because you have no sound base from which to argue, is an insult to the Iizasa family and the problem it continues to face TODAY in maintaining the one true line under the name TSKSR. And if you have no respect for the Iizasa family and its wish that people defer to them in matters regarding THEIR PROPERTY, and don't believe in allegiance to Soke and any owner of anything, what exactly do you believe in, and why exactly do you practice Japanese arts. I throw my glove down here. I really really want to know your thoughts on this. How good of a man Sugino was or good of a teacher he was has no bearing on what we are discussing here, so leave that at the door please.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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    I read the thread with interest and would like to add a few words relating to Budo in general.

    Sadly a clash of characters does occur in some old ryu into a situation which can't be patched up. Then the official/unofficial words start to get thrown about.

    Lets face it that why we perhaps see so many branches of things today and it does not get any better.

    Personaly I have got quite deeply involved in ryu affairs rather than as Mr Amdur said on the periphery. I had hoped for a little more from my associates who seem to give the budo seishin a kick in the pants. I can say for sure that if one want to put some worthwhile honesty, trust and duty into budo you will have to put it there yourself. I have already seen enough crap here in Japan that sometimes makes me wonder if its really worth it.

    What a lot of the would be chiefs don't seem to realize is that we need the indians to carry on with the tribe.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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    Gmellis

    Thanks for the clarification.

    I was looking at it from the prespective of 4 teachers being sent to teach Katori Ryu.

    Since the decsion to send them (them being Shiina (Sheena) Kisaburo, Tanekichi,Sozaemon--(Thanks to George Kohler)
    Was presumably made by the "powers that be"--at that time.

    I would have thought they did in fact have permission to teach.

    Otherwise why send a group to do exactly that--teach Katori Ryu??

    Like I said before, it gets murky from that point on.

    I was also under the impression that the Sugino group had "made peace" so to speak with the current headmaster.

    Is that not correct???

    Chris Thomas

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    I found this on the web, so I don't know how accurate it is. The web site is in french but I was able to use a translator provided by google.

    http://www.etik.asso.fr/articles/tsksr.htm

    There was no problem of transmission of wire father until the time of 18th Soke, Shuri No Suke Morisada. However, this one died in 1898 at the 59 years age without leaving of male heir. During twenty years, i.e. until 1918, the follow-up of the teaching of the school was ensured by a college of nine experts whose principal instructor was Yamaguchi Kumajiro. The eight other experts taking over temporarily the duties were Shihans Kamagata Minosuke, Tamai Kisaburo, Shiina Ichizo, Ito Tanekichi, Kuboki Sozaemon, Isobe Kouhei, Hayashi Yazaemon (death in 1964) and Motomiya Toranosuke. With the death of Shihan Yamaguchi in 1918, the 8 instructors had between 38 and 70 years. All had a style and a slightly different technique, each one of them being adapted to their morphology like with their personality. The head of Ryu imperatively having to belong to the family of the founder, new Soke was introduced by the means of a marriage within the Iizasa family.
    I also found this on the web about the Soke of Katori Shinto-ryu giving permission to Sugino to teach.

    http://www.aikibudo.com/akbd/version...fig/sugino.htm

    In 1940, following a brillant demonstration in front of the imperial prince NASHIMOTO, IIZASA KINJIRO,19th soke of the Katori Shinto Ryu, authorized him to become a teacher. From that time, KAWASAKI dojo became a branch of Katori. Master Kinjiro encouraged Master Sugino to spread knowledge of the Katori beyond the Katori and also to write a book on the subject. He prefaced as follows:

    "...The social situation her no longer allows us to keep the secrets of the Katori Shinto Ryu doctrine within the school. Since the appearance, in the spring of 1935, of the association for the revival of martial arts in Japan, I feel guilty that I have allowed some of our founders' arts to die out, therefore, I have chosen, as a service to our nation, to show the general public, through the handling of the sabre, certain parts of Shinto Ryu. At the right moment, Master Sugino suggested publishing, with Mme ITTO KIKOUE's assistance, the existing techniques in order to guide the youngest amongst us. I gave him my support and henc this book has come has come to see the light of day. It contains the wealth of the author's experiences conveys the essential spirit of the martial and explains in detail the Omote Waza techniques.It may be used as a manual for beginners or for those wishing to perfect their knowledge. Being published, at this time when, attempts are being made to popularize the martial arts, I feel certain that this book will be of service to future society. Lastely I must express my admiration for the authors and the efforts that they have made.

    Signed at Katori, Mid-Autumn 1941.
    IIZASA SHURI NO SUKE KINJIRO, 19th descendant of the founder."
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Thanks for the links, Mr. Kohler. They are certainly goods leads whose source material needs to be verified as authentic (remember that these are sites of Sugino's students), but would help fill in some missing parts if they are, in fact, reliable. Whether or not Sugino Sensei had permission from the previous headmaster to teach, however, is far less at issue here than whether a teaching license is inheritable by descendants of said person. While I hate dragging his name out in public, given his justified and honorable desire to remain out of the limelight, let us discuss Phil Relnick's rank. He is the highest ranking foreign member of the school, and is ranked at least as high as Sugino Sensei was when he started teaching. Does anyone think that Phil Relnick can pass down his title and rank within the school hereditarily without permission from Soke? I think it is obvious to everyone that, no, he could not, and doing so would be an insult to the Iizasa family. So why does anyone think that the Sugino family can do just that? THAT is the question I seek the answer to from people in that camp. I realize Sugino Sensei was recognized as a teacher by the previous Soke. That is not at issue, although how close a tie and an allegiance to the honbu (as his superior) he maintained over the years does beg the question. But again, Mr. Kohler, thanks for those leads. Perhaps someone will visit kawasaki and ask to see the written document attributed to Iizasa Kinjiro Soke.

    Mr. Thomas,
    Forgive me if you misunderstood my post. I was not saying that those men did not have permission to teach, as they obviously did since they were dispatched from Katori. I was merely arguing that it was Hayashi Sensei who was closely involved with the Iizasa family and helped win it the Intangible Cultural Asset designation it won, and it was he who, with the cooperation of Soke, charged Otake Risuke with carrying on the teaching tradition. Where was Shiina Sensei or these other men when all this was happening? A big question, no doubt. But if they were central to the tradition and had pivotal roles within the Katori iemoto system, they would have been central in gaining that designation for the school, or they would have been mentioned within our school more. It is interesting that, in all the sites by Sugino students on the Net that mention these four mystery teachers in association with Hayashi Sensei, the ones that taught Sugino Sensei always appear first in the lineup, while Hayashi Sensei, who by all appearences seemed to play a more pivotal role in the school's preservation and welfare on its home ground (albeit he refused to go to Tokyo to teach Sugino or others), is always at the BOTTOM of the list. It's interesting how the importance of these people to Sugino seems to have elevated them in status above their apparent importance in preserving and gaining recognition for the school as a cultural treasure. Curious indeed. Perhaps more scholarship will reveal something closer to the truth in the future. But, I digress. I think enough has been said on the subject from my side for now. And as is usually the case with the Sugino students, they avoid these tough questions becuase they already have the answers to them, and those answers threaten them and their considerable investment in a rogue school. I would strongly recommend that they be honest with themselves, like many of their ex-comrades who have already jumped ship and returned to the mainline where they belong, after much difficult soul searching. Life is too short to lead a lie, and even shorter to constantly rationalize something you know to be inherently immoral. Best of luck to you.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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