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Thread: Katori Ryu Question

  1. #46
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    Hello,

    My thoughts on issues such as this are probably well known to all. The soke of the school reserves the sole right to designate who can or cannot teach the techniques of the school. If someone doesn't have permission from the soke then they should not be teaching. End of story.

    However, I'd like to point out that I do have an original copy of Sugino sensei's book on Katori Shinto-ryu here and I thought I should mention that the book does indeed contain a forward by the 19th generation headmaster of Katori Shinto-ryu as was mentioned previously.

    I hope this helps.

    Regards,

    Ron Beaubien

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Sugino Yoshio

    Originally posted by Patrick McCarthy
    In addition to karate/kobudo (seperate lineage), I have been enjoying the practice and teaching of what took me years to learn under the watchful eye of the late master (Sugino), for a long time now, and have never require or asked any one's special permission to do it.
    Patrick McCarthy
    Hey there!

    I have a question for you:

    If you were offered the chance to join Katori Shinto Ryu under Mr. Otake, would you do it?

    Always,
    -Russ

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    "I would strongly recommend that they be honest with themselves, like many of their ex-comrades who have already jumped ship and returned to the mainline where they belong, after much difficult soul searching. Life is too short to lead a lie, and even shorter to constantly rationalize something you know to be inherently immoral. "

    You express yourself eloquently, but I think that passages like this are quite insulting. It is quite obvious that the "budo seishin" you might posess, do not rub of in your e-budo ranting.
    The people who practise tkrs as taught by the late sugino is just as diverse as any other group of budoka, and no lesser individuals in terms of morality.
    some names you "hate to drag out in public", and others not. I do not understand the time and energy spent on this crusade.
    Roar Ulvestad

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    First of all, I would like to thank Ron for confirming that the forward by the previous Soke was, in fact, authentic. As Ron is impeccable in his scholarship, I think his confirmation satisfies any doubt that Sugino Sensei was teaching without permission. That issue certainly doesn?ft need further discussion. Also thanks again to Mr. Kohler for finding those links.

    You express yourself eloquently, but I think that passages like this are quite insulting.
    That sentence had the intention of being insulting. Hopefully it will be so insulting that those who have lurked in the forum as a habit and who practice in the Sugino dojo will rise to the challenge and address my argument, and we can have some enlightening debate here, rather than the avoidance I have seen on this forum before regarding this issue. If my claims are false, prove it. Pick them apart. Kick them around. I welcome it. I look forward to it.

    As to whether my "insulting" claim is fair or just mean-spirited regarding practicing a rogue form of KSR being a "lie," let's examine my argument and see:

    1. The previous teacher, Sugino Sensei, had permission to teach by the previous Soke.

    2. The title he was awarded is not a hereditary one, but dependent on the continued good graces of the Soke, which can be revoked at any time for any reason (much like the use of a copyright). The only title that is hereditary in the KSR is Soke. Not even Otake Sensei can pass down his title hereditarily by default without permission from Soke.

    3. Sugino Sensei, the only member of his school recognized to have teaching permission by the honbu, passed away.

    4. His offspring and students continue to practice using the name "Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu"

    5. They are not affiliated with, or recognized by the current Soke, and thus do not have the right to use the name, which is the property of the Iizasa family, and has been for over 600 years.

    6. They are using a name that they do not have permission to use, and are doing so knowingly. We can assume it is knowingly, because they would obviously know whether they had permission or not through regular contact with Soke. But wait. They do not have regular contact with Soke, because they are a rogue school which is shunned by the honbu. And if they are shunned, how could they possibly have permission to continue teaching under the KSR name. Just as in the day-to-day world, putting the Microsoft label on a non-Microsoft product is the equivalent to lying, their using the KSR name when, in fact, they do not have permission to.........is lying. If their students hold the same opinion, knowing these same truths (and if they?fve been around long enough they should be familiar with the points by now), then they, in effect, would be lying to themselves. If those same students teach, they would be lying to others. Now, if anyone would like to argue any of these points, be my guest. I look forward to your comments.


    It is quite obvious that the "budo seishin" you might posess, do not rub of in your e-budo ranting.
    Ah yes. "Budo Seishin." I word we often hear in Japanese martial forums. Although, in my 7+ years here in Japan, I wasn't aware that that word had been standardized in the Japanese public or martial worlds to have a specific meaning to all people all of the time. I would like to hear your definition of "Budo Seishin," Mr. Ulvestad. You see, there are probably as many definitions of "Budo Seishin" as there are people who care what it means. What does spirituality mean to you? I argue that it is the same problem of interpretation.

    Part of my personal conception of "Budo Seishin" is to fight for what you believe is right, and to voice your protest against injustice or someone who is doing something you find to be ethically or morally wrong, even if it offends. That is why I am not offended by evangelistic Christians, because, at least they stand up for what they believe in and bring something to the public table of debate, rather than melting into a great wide ocean of apathy created by a moral relativity and ?glive and let live?h ethic in which even criticizing female genital mutilation is considered culturally bigoted. Perhaps you thought that my words were harsh, and thus believe me to me base and petty, argumentative, close-minded and intolerant of others, to name a few. So be it. But I will willingly take your criticism if you would in turn address the points I have raised here, and add something to the debate.

    To continue, one notion of "budo seishin" that I have frequently come across in writings, especially by westerners, has been this notion that the "warrior" is above pettiness and conflict. That they are some sort of bodhisattva who is unflappable and doesn't quibble with day-to-day affairs. That they are flexible and indifferent like the Taoist, and calm and controlled (as I assume to include never saying anything that might offend someone, god forbid, whether it is true or not) like the Buddhist, and humble and loyal like a Confucian. That they must always seek harmony among people and never pursue a course that may lead to discord. These and other notions have been mentioned overtly or not in writings I have come across. I have also heard the word ?ghumility?h used in association with ?gbudo seishin,?h that we are all ignorant and working our way through improvement, so we have no right to judge anyone else. And yet, in reality, we make judgments of people and their actions every day, and rightly so, as judgments are necessary for us to function on a day to day basis and make proper choices and avoid calamities, and other applications. In reality, we must judge the actions of others if we are to maintain any standard of ethicality or morality. And if we cannot even do that, then matters of ethics and social norms become irrelevant, and one fiber of society is unwound.

    If "budo seishin" to you means always being polite and nice, then so be it. But I contend that sometimes a person has got to come down hard and mercilessly at the right time when we see others defiantly continue a course of action we deem to be unethical and injurious to others, especially when the victim (or plaintiff) has the ownership or title to whatever is the source of contention. King had as much of my notion of "budo seishin" as someone like Morihei Ueshiba did, if not more. If you think my words here do not reflect "budo seishin," then perhaps they don't (reflect yours that is). But my conception of "budo seishin" can be compassionate and forgiving and tolerant, or it can be wrathful and staunch in support of the ?gright?h and ?gjust.?h But at least I have the courage point out when someone is doing something that, in a different realm of society like copyright, most of us could agree is wrong.
    I, for one, do not believe in the "live and let live" philosophy if that philosophy condones what I consider to be unethical and unjust behavior. If I must use strong words to draw out those who would normally cower and avoid the issue, so be it. I will stand in judgment of any one, willingly, and hear their critique of how deplorable my actions are. Those who know me know that I will just as quickly abandon a faulty or unsupported argument I hold if a better one comes along by some one. I seek truth, if anyone other than me still believes in such things. And in this case, the truth as I see it is outlined in the points above. If anyone sees the facts differently, I anxiously await your response. And silence, by the way, is a passive conceding of my points.


    I do not understand the time and energy spent on this crusade.
    Then you do not understand what is at stake here, which is that a family with a lineage and tradition older than many countries of the world, should have the right to use that name and its sister name (KSR) as it chooses, and selectively bestow the right to use that name to whomever it chooses. If it is a crusade, so be it. But the crusade is beyond this infraction of morality or decency. The copyright law exists because mankind believes in the principles behind that law. Those same principles are at play here. If you think this is something personal, then think again. It is about principle.
    Last edited by gmellis; 15th April 2004 at 13:45.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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    Gmellis


    I don't think any disrespect is meant or implied by Sugino or his students when they put Hayashi "at the bottom" as you put it.
    Of the instructers chart.

    Most charts I have seen that trace a given persons teachers start with his direct instucter and work BACK--his teacher and his teacher and so on.

    Since Hayashi was the teacher of those 4 men it makes sense to me to have it listed as Sugino--Sugino's teachers---the man that taught them--etc.

    Could be wrong but I don't think it was or is a purposeful slight.


    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 15th April 2004 at 14:26.

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    "Then you do not understand what is at stake here, which is that a family with a lineage and tradition older than many countries of the world, should have the right to use that name and its sister name (KSR) as it chooses, and selectively bestow the right to use that name to whomever it chooses. If it is a crusade, so be it. But the crusade is beyond this infraction of morality or decency. The copyright law exists because mankind believes in the principles behind that law. Those same principles are at play here. If you think this is something personal, then think again. It is about principle"

    Im still curious. Whats in it for you? Have you spent your 7+ years in Japan in the "right" dojo in Narita, and been appointed the Internet lawyer For Stimulation of Rightful Transmission of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?

    I guess there are easier ways of getting people into a meaningful discussion of the matter at hand than calling them liars, immoral, and lacking in honesty. perhaps you will have some luck if you adress them in person, not just as a general entity of mischievers.

    There are more than one group that do "rogue-tsksr". Do you separate between them, or are they all just a bunch of ignorant evil-doers?

    Lets save the budo-seishin discussion for another thread, I have always believed that showing respect for your opponent was one of the main virtues of this "state of mind". I may be wrong.

    Roar Ulvestad

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    Mr. Mellis,

    Just a question, and let me state here that I am quite sensitive to your perspective and the concerns you have. If the Sugino group chose to carry on their art under a different name, such as, Sugino-ha KSR, would you have the same problem?

    I understand the importance of a name, and the imprimatur of legitimacy that can flow from such a name. Thus the concerns you have. But considering the flow of martial traditions in Japanese history, and the constant changes in styles and traditions, e.g., Kage ryu, Shinkage ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu (Edo and Owari, and today, the groups studying in Japan that are not even under Nobuharu Sensei) (all combining and adding elements of each other and other arts, including KSR, or like Itto ryu and all the different variants of it), surely you would not have a problem with this evolution?

    Best regards,
    Arman Partamian

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    Just for the record, I stand with Greg Ellis on this issue. If a person wants to claim they are doing Katori Shinto Ryu then be recognized by the Soke of Katori Shinto Ryu. If they are not willing to go through the proper steps then call it something else such as Bootleg Katori Shinto Ryu or something like that.
    Christopher Moon

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    I don't think any disrespect is meant or implied by Sugino or his students when they put Hayashi "at the bottom" as you put it.
    Mr. Thomas, that is an excellent possibility for the order with which people's names appeared on selected home pages. The example I was thinking of, however, had the chronology from older to newer generation (top to bottom). Your theory may very well apply to other homepages or instances though. Thanks for the input. I also concede that there may be other motivations or reasons for the order that people's names appear. I was just trying to throw gasoline on the bonfire and get this party hopping.

    Im still curious. Whats in it for you?
    To see that an injustice and slight to an old and respected name is brought into the public attention and discussed or debated, not as something solely of interest to the Iizasa family or people concerned about KSR, but as an issue that represents a more wide-scoped breach of ethics and decency in martial arts. Oh, that and the fact that I'm paid 10,000 yen a day to insight rebellion against infidels.


    Have you spent your 7+ years in Japan in the "right" dojo in Narita
    Actually I have yes. That same "right" lieneage is the one that is listed as a cultural asset and asked to take part as the "right" Katori Shinto Ryu in government-sponsored exhibitions.

    and been appointed the Internet lawyer For Stimulation of Rightful Transmission of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?
    No. Actually I was appointed as the Grand Inquisitor of Infidel Dissenters and Rogue Martial Bandits, but you can call me "Buddy."



    I guess there are easier ways of getting people into a meaningful discussion of the matter at hand than calling them liars, immoral, and lacking in honesty.
    Previous discussions of the Sugino/Mainline issue on this forum either ended by everyone going their separate ways and being gentlemanly, and nothing getting resolved and no hard issues being addressed. Rather, the "let's agree that we disagree" approach was taken, which, while it may soothe egos, merely perpetuates the status quo, which is unacceptable. This issue has been discussed several times, to the disgust of veterans who are probably shaking their heads and saying "again?" Let us all pile into the courtoom and state our claims and argue our arguments and see if we can't find some closure on this shall we? That is, if people from that camp have enough confidence and reasoned, sound arguments sturdy enough to weather a healthy rebuttal. And if they don't, that begs the question of whether they are deluding themselves. And I address them as a whole, because

    perhaps you will have some luck if you adress them in person, not just as a general entity of mischievers
    I take no issue with students of Sugawara or groups in a similar boat, for reasons that I am not at liberty to divulge. I am here to discuss the Sugino folks, and as such, I may, if I so choose, level the accusations at the whole lot of them in one fell swoop. That I choose to do. Why should I pick an individual, when the breach of both ethics and decency is applicable to ALL who continue to ally with that school, and against the Soke, by default.

    them, or are they all just a bunch of ignorant evil-doers?
    I do, and for reasons that cannot be divulged to outsiders. You will just have to trust that I have a sound reason for making my distinction.

    Lets save the budo-seishin discussion for another thread, I have always believed that showing respect for your opponent was one of the main virtues of this "state of mind". I may be wrong.
    I have always believed that respect, as opposed to basic courtesy, was a reciprocal virtue, and that showing respect to someone who shows none to you merely enables and encourages their further disrespect of you, and opens you up for greater insult and injury. As for courtesy, I have waved that in this one single instance as a means of fueling the debate. Courtesy is what has left this issue in the closet for so long. Let us try a different approach this time, as by the number of responses so far, it has at least achieved its objective of fueling a debate. Lastly, I also thought that showing respect to the family who let your teacher EVEN ENTER THEIR SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH was also one aspect of "budo seishin." Displaying gratitude, humility and deference to someone who is letting you borrow their property seems a pretty good indicator of "budo seishin," as I see it.

    If the Sugino group chose to carry on their art under a different name, such as, Sugino-ha KSR, would you have the same problem?
    WHile I think the Iizasa family and other concerned would prefer a different name altogether, rather than a modification of the name to "XX-ha," I for one would find that modification acceptable enough. There is at least precedent for that kind of minor modification of the name in the annals of Japanese history, so that is a strong case for accepting a compromise like that.

    I understand the importance of a name, and the imprimatur of legitimacy that can flow from such a name. Thus the concerns you have. But considering the flow of martial traditions in Japanese history, and the constant changes in styles and traditions, e.g., Kage ryu, Shinkage ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu (Edo and Owari, and today, the groups studying in Japan that are not even under Nobuharu Sensei) (all combining and adding elements of each other and other arts, including KSR, or like Itto ryu and all the different variants of it), surely you would not have a problem with this evolution?
    Mr. Partamian you speak words of tasty goodness! I couldn't agree with you more, as indicated in the paragraph above. A precedent has been long established here in Japan, and while a complete change of name would probably be more acceptable to certain parties, whom I do not represent here, at least a "XX-ha" would be more of a compromise and less of a slap in the face than current arrangement.

    Well, this is turning into a nice gathering, but it appears the other invited guests have yet to show. And I even set out the fine china. Mr. McCarthy? Are you still here? Do you have anything to add? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

    I'll just have to eat this cake all on my lonesome.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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    Unfortunately, things are rarely so neatly black and white.

    A Soke may be able to say who can and cannot give licenses, rank, and such in the name of the ryu, but can he say who can and cannot pass on what they have been taught to others?

    In other words, are Sugino Sensei's students claiming to be members of the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu, or only that they are teaching particular TSKSR kenjutsu waza?

    By way of analogy, there used to be a government agency called the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (the forerunner of NASA). They developed, among other things, a series of airfoil designs that were used by many aircraft companies. Now, if I designed an aircraft and used a NACA airfoil, could I then advertise and sell my aircraft as having a NACA airfoil without first getting NASA's approval? As long as I wasn't fraudulently claiming that I was a NASA engineer, and unless I had signed a licensing agreement with NACA that prohibited doing so, then yes, I could -- even if the current NASA administrator didn't want me to.

    Please note that I am not stating an opinion here. When I say "can he say who can and cannot pass on what they have been taught to others?" I man exactly that. It is a question. My analogy is only to show the reasoning that would lead me to ask such a question.

    Hoping to keep things gentlemanly, I remain...
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi


    As long as I wasn't fraudulently claiming that I was a NASA engineer

    I thought the beef is that these guys are claiming to be TSKSR teachers.
    Christopher Moon

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    Not trying to start anything here, but searching the net a few weeks back, I came across this pic. It's dated 1992, either at the honbu dojo, or maybe at Izaza sensei's home.

    On the left, you have Izaza Sensei, the current Soke and on the right, you have Sugino Yoshio sensei.

    If there is such a rift, why is it that Sugino travelled all the way from Kawasaki to Narita to meet with the soke and train at the dojo? And furthermore, why would the soke agree to meet with Sugino if they were on bad terms?

    I'm was hoping that someone could clarify this.

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    Originally posted by ChrisMoon
    I thought the beef is that these guys are claiming to be TSKSR teachers.
    That's part of my question, I think. Are they claiming to be "TSKSR teachers" or are they claiming to to be "teaching TSKSR waza"? Is there a distinction between the two; and if not, should there be? Is there a difference between "what" you are teaching, and "what organization you are teaching under"?
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 16th April 2004 at 08:24.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Edit: Double post. Sorry.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Smile Sugino Yoshio

    Dear Mr. Ellis,

    Yes, I am still here…can’t get rid of me that easily. Please forgive my less than immediate reply as I am here in the Middle East (Tel Aviv) nearing the end of teaching a 6-week international budo seminar assignment and not able to get to my e-mail frequently.

    I do appreciate the dialogue on this matter; Discussing the history of this issue helps reveal both sides of the story, although I must admit, I still don’t completely understand why the legacy of my departed teacher is only now being challenged by a foreign student/s of his junior [Otake sensei], when there was more than ample time and opportunity during the more than six decades he taught by Otake sensei, himself.

    You state that, "the character that a person is commonly believed to display has no bearing on the soundness or ethics of any given action on their part". While you might insinuate that the public face was different from the actual nature of a person, I feel that it is my duty to publicly defend the man I personally knew and trained under by baring witness to my own observations of him. My original intention for interjecting was to ensure that the baseless innuendo and insinuation, which I know exists surrounding Sugino-sensei, did not get purchase in an open forum, nor went unchallenged should it have arisen. It is therefore vital to acknowledge in a public forum his skill and character as ultimately this is what is being challenged/attacked.

    Personally, I never had reason to ask whether the master was or was not *officially* recognized. In fact, after all the political hooplah I witnessed in the martial arts during ten years of residence in Japan, such hogwash made/makes me sick to my bones. From my perspective and granted it is the perspective of someone who trained under Sugino Sensei, it seems as if there is a slight case of revisionism afoot. Let us speak of the facts. Sugino Yoshio taught TSKSR his entire life and was widely recognized for it. He unreservedly imparted his teaching to hundreds (if not thousands) of learners in the same way that he had learned from his teacher; with integrity, an eye for detail, and respect for its heritage. The question one might ask themselves is if Sugino Sensei publicly taught TSKSR his entire life (he lived more than nine decades) and was never publicly challenged by the Izasa family (i.e. given a "cease and desist" order), or by his then junior, Otake Sensei, then would that not indicate that he did so with their tacit consent? I ask whether you have any evidence to the contrary that can be independently corroborated that originated while Sugino sensei was still alive? As you might well appreciate, independent and verifiable information is the only kind with any value, otherwise theoretical discussions such as this rapidly get bogged down in conjecture, speculation and self serving innuendo.

    As to a point that was made concerning claims of studying at a particular institution, I believe that the analogy is at best, a straw man, and at worst, false. Saying that you studied TSKSR under Sugino Sensei is not analogous to claiming you studied at Harvard, when in fact what you did was train under a Harvard trained professor. Indeed, the correct analogy would be to say that you trained in the Harvard technique of a particular discipline. For instance, one need not necessarily speak German and have been physically located in Frankfurt to be considered a part of the Frankfurt School of thought, and one can teach this school of thought anywhere around the world and be recognized as a Frankfurt scholar. I would like to ask why this is different from the situation that we are discussing. Harvard, Frankfurt or the Izasa family may well be the historical home of a particular tradition, but unless they can demonstrate that someone is misrepresenting their traditions by either possessing an incomplete or inaccurate set of skills, then I can't see much of a case to answer. Lineage in the martial arts, including koryu traditions, is like any family tree. Just because a grandfather did not approve a marriage of a grandchild does not make the great grand children illegitimate. And ultimately, to quote WH Auden, "The words of a dead man Are modified in the guts of the living".

    You have all but admitted that you have an axe to grind regarding this matter. I wonder whether you are honest enough within yourself to recognize your own bias and complicity in this?

    As for moral obligation or ethicality (sic), you might well want to explain why this tradition is known as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and not Iizasa-Ryu? Let us be honest. This is not a discussion about the legitimacy of one true lineage of a tradition. It is about the capricious claims of various people who are one (or more) steps away from the lineage (by your definition). And while I applaud you for being skeptical of information that comes from the "opposition" camp, I would suggest that it would be wise to apply the same level of critique on information you receive from "your" sources. I believe that an application of Occam's Razor is in order.

    You state that you, "take no issue with students of Sugawara or groups in a similar boat, for reasons that I am not at liberty to divulge". I believe that this is disingenuous, and highlights the fundamental flaw in your argument. You choose not to engage certain parts of the debate that display ethical equivalency as they may simply make it more obvious that what you are arguing is a point of politics and not one of consistent ethical or moral frameworks. I am always deeply suspicious of people who bandy about accusations and then refuse to divulge their sources or reasoning. There is no more impetus to believe the assertion than there is the average fairy tale. To my mind, if you cannot say either the source or content the statement is worthless.

    You state that you have been dissatisfied with previous discussions of this issue, where people retreat to their preferred version of the story and agree to disagree. May I suggest that your true cause of your dissatisfaction stems from the inflexibility of a zealot for whom facts are a grab bag to pick from what you wish and reject as heresy that which you disagree with. It appears that you have a very deep personal attachment to perceiving yourself as being on the side of the righteous. Let me say that I always find it puzzling that so many martial arts practitioners have such a naive and uncritical approach to the political realities at the heart of *any* organization. I find it particularly baffling that individuals retain this naivety even after years of immersion at the heart of these organizations.

    To clarify the point of my invitation to front up at my dojo, it was not to invite a round of "gentlemanly fisticuffs". Instead, it was an invitation extended to you and any other who might wish to actively see my work, my students and discuss the matter in person. I am always willing to welcome visitors and enjoy a robust exchange of ideas. Personally, I think that it speaks more of you than I that you assume an invitation is a challenge or a threat. To be blunt, we do not live in Edo period Japan (or the Wild West for that matter), so what makes you assume that I was talking about inviting you (or anyone for that matter) to face off with our favorite 3 foot razor
    blades?

    May I suggest that your tactics in this thread, which you explicitly state were meant to be insulting, certainly do not hold you in good stead. Provocative can be fine, but the addition on insult simply highlights arrogance and an immaturity of argument. I would also like to disabuse you of your notion that I react like a proverbial "bull in a china shop". Please know that while I will not back away from such obvious a personal bait, my response will always be measured. And while you are rolling out the clichés, do not be so sure that you can both possess and consume the cake you seem so dreadfully attached to. If I were the Izasa family I certainly would not want as indiscrete, immoderate and ill considered "advocate" pursuing their own agenda in public fora.

    Of course, my invitation still stands, especially now knowing that you’re an Otake student, if and when you are ever in Brisbane (Australia) I would most welcome the opportunity to meet and extend a hand in friendship should you wish to be colleagues….communication not confrontation.

    Patrick McCarthy

    PS: BTW, Mr. Delaney, thanks for posting the photo [natsukashi desu yo]; It's one of our trips out to Narita with my classmates, Eri Kusano and Are Larsen (now husband & wife).

    PPS: To the other gentleman who asked if I'd ever like to train with Otake Sensei.....I already have...wonderful experience, extremely friendly person and remarkable martial artist, IMHO.
    Last edited by Patrick McCarthy; 16th April 2004 at 09:32.

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