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Thread: Daito-ryu

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    Red face

    S.Pranin has published an open letter concerning a Daito ryu organization and their web site. Check it out www.aikidojournal.com
    check open letter link.

    -DougWalker
    Bastard Son of Ireland
    Last living member of The Sons of Rest
    “Why stand when you can sit, why sit when you can lie down.”
    Preserving the secret teachings of the true way of leisure as passed down from our ancient Irish ancestors.

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    "I can't think of any Japanese headquarters school running a website that doesn't have a version in Japanese. It just makes no sense! How am I to understand this strange omission?"

    go to http://www.aikikai.org/
    to find "To Japanese Pages (“ú–{Œê)
    Still Under Construction"
    (and have been for a while now.)

    http://www.daito-ryu.org/
    "For the moment the site is in English only, but we are hoping to expand it to include the same historical and biographical material in the original Japanese as well. "



    [This message has been edited by Anthony Chui (edited 06-13-2000).]

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    The internet is not as big in alot of countries yet, including Japan. So it is not that uncommon to find that there is an English language page and not a Japanese version since (likely) a native Japanese who is knowledgable in publishing HTML would have to create it.

    That's not to say the page does not warrant some investigation, but I wouldn't use this point as the core for any argument, IMHO.

    Regards,


    ------------------
    Nathan Scott
    Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo
    Tsuki Kage dojo
    Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum

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    Smile

    "-DougWalker
    Bastard Son of Ireland
    Last living member of The Sons of Rest
    “Why stand when you can sit, why sit when you can lie down.”
    Preserving the secret teachings of the true way of leisure as passed down from our ancient Irish ancestors."

    Doug,
    I laughed my ass off at this one. While my wife is not Irish I am sure she must be in some sort of sister organization. Although with her you must be careful not to wake her or the redhead in her comes out full tilt. Hope to see you in Dallas again so I can learn more about your ancient art. Being an Irish art I assume that it involves Guiness.

    mark

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    As an outsider looking in on Daitoryu (I did train for a few months), this looks like the postmortem bickering among students that happens throughout the martial arts. I've heard Kondo trashed by students of another student of Tokimune -- whether it's a junta, a family business, a religious group or a ryuha, the jockeying and in-fighting start when the figurehead kicks it.

    Pranin has obviously thrown in with Kondo, and that's a very safe bet. Within the Daitoryu community I get the impression that no one can dispute Kondo's legitimacy as an instructor (though I have heard other factions disagree about his being a successor -- indeed maybe there isn't meant to be one). Pranin's Aiki News has helped to cement Kondo's legitimacy by making embutaikai videos with other system heads' expressions of support (including the Takumakai).

    This is not to say that Aiki News' activities are unjustified or wrong -- it only says that Pranin has clearly indicated his position on the successorship issue people obviously want to continue debating. Rather than official position, the more important thing for me about a teacher is what can the person do and how well can I learn from that person.

    Rich B

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    Wink

    Mark,
    I’m glad you liked The Sons of Rest. It is the creation of my great uncle Paul “Irish” Walker who was a newspaper man in Gettysburg PA. The Sons of Rest was a running gag that went on for years. He printed up membership cards entitling members to bench seats at parades, unlimited time observing construction sites, and the use of handicapped parking regardless of physical condition etc. He would produce materials for nonexistent events like the Knights of Columbus vs. KKK softball game and send them out. He’s been gone almost 15 years so I got a warm feeling thinking about the Sons.

    I agree with Toby. What’s the point of all this blood and thunder? They certainly seem to be talented and experienced individuals why isn’t that enough? Certainly several of S. Takada Sensei’s students coexisted just fine with different orgainizations. But, who knows what set them off. It seems to have happened during the late master’s illness.
    As a “little” guy of no consequence I kinda ’spect mo’ o’ me betters.

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    -DougWalker

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    >>"I can't think of any Japanese headquarters school running a website that doesn't have a version in Japanese. It just makes no sense! How am I to understand this strange omission?"

    go to http://www.aikikai.org/
    to find "To Japanese Pages (“ú–{Œê)
    Still Under Construction"
    (and have been for a while now.)
    http://www.daito-ryu.org/
    "For the moment the site is in English only, but we are hoping to expand it to include the same historical and biographical material in the original Japanese as well. "

    i can't say much for the Aikikai site, but i know there are other officially sanctioned Daito-ryu web sites, in Japanese. http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/
    this site is run by a Mr. Shimomura, and from what i gather has Kondo sensei's approval. it seems it has a lot of good info. on it. if you look under "eimeiroku" section it has a list of some of the more famous students of Takeda Sokaku sensei, some even with pictures. there is even mention made of Charles Perry as well.

    just because we can't see it doesn't mean its not there

    Gambatte!!!

    ------------------
    Chris Covington
    Daito-ryu study group
    Shinkendo
    Kodokan judo

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    "As an outsider looking in on Daitoryu (I did train for a few months), this looks like the postmortem bickering among students that happens throughout the martial arts. I've heard Kondo trashed by students of another student of Tokimune -- whether it's a junta, a family business, a religious group or a ryuha, the jockeying and in-fighting start when the figurehead kicks it." - Rich B.

    Rich,

    What makes this so unusual and is the reason for Stan Pranin's ire is that Kondo Katsuyuki is the only person to receive a Menkyo Kaiden from Takeda Tokimune. He was also formally appointed as "Soke Dairi" to Tokimune long before his death. That pretty much seals the deal here without any question.

    That these goobers in Hokkaido went to such ridiculous lengths to try and redefine what a Menkyo Kaiden is, is obvious. They don't like the deal. Well, tough beans guys! Grow up! Now you look like childish fools. Fancy pontification, blatant distortions and creative new interpretations of time honored traditional teaching documents won't change the facts.

    Why they didn't just start their own faction is beyond me. Trying to hijack the hombu tradition is really ......... dumb!

    Toby Threadgill

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    Hi,

    I could be mistaken, but didn't T. Takeda Sensei experience some kind of mental degenerative type disease for some time before his death? This is very possibly why there is room for confusion regarding who was officialy supposed to continue the art.

    It appears from documentation that Kondo Sensei was clearly chosen to substitute in his place, perhaps until a Takeda was fit to resume the Sokeship.

    But there are at least one or two takeda's that claim to be continuing the Daito ryu blood line and now these guys.

    Can anyone confirm Takeda Sensei's illness and why there might be room for "interpretation" as to who should continue the line?

    Interestingly, I believe Nakamura Taisaburo Sensei may be suffering from a mentally degenerative disease as well, and I understand there is already confusion over who is supposed to be appointed Nidai Soke of his style (guess I should confirm this rumor with Mr. Power). What a really sad thing to have to go through for all involved.

    Regards,

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Walker:
    What’s the point of all this blood and thunder? They certainly seem to be talented and experienced individuals why isn’t that enough? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    I think the problem is not with ability, but rather nobility...

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    I do find it sad that after the death of a founder or elder, various arts tend to go through a sort of " King Lear " phase. It makes things incredibly complicated for everyone who is less concerned with the nuances of organisational politics.

    ------------------
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

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    Hi Nathan --

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Interestingly, I believe Nakamura Taisaburo Sensei may be suffering from a mentally degenerative disease as well, and I understand there is already confusion over who is supposed to be appointed Nidai Soke of his style (guess I should confirm this rumor with Mr. Power). What a really sad thing to have to go through for all involved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Although sensei is not as coherent as he once was, he'd definitely not senile; and there's not really any confusion at all now about his successor. Each of us who received "Densho" (about 50 people) are "in the running" to be nidai soke -- however, I'll tell you right now that I'll not be selected (they're just being polite to me).

    His daughter is now responsible for copyrights, use of image, etc. -- so until sensei officially names someone, she's probably going to be the defacto soke-dairi for the time being.

    I just hope the official nidai-soke is named-and-retained prior to Nakamura sensei passing over "Sanzu no Kawa" [River Styx]. Lord knows we don't need any factions being created.

    Regards,
    Guy

    ------------------
    Guy H. Power
    http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

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    Hi Nathan, that's one of the things I heard suggested -- that Tokimune was taken advantage of when he wasn't competent. I have absolutely no idea about its veracity -- given the goals of the Hokkaido disputants it's not a particularly creative argument.

    Maybe part of the reason for the intensity of Pranin's response is because the issue isn't completely resolved (or clear). I believe there was litigation about this but I don't recall who the parties were or who won. I don't care enough about Daitoryu to find out.

    Of course, this could be resolved the way a similar dispute in another ryuha was resolved -- the more legitimate guy went over to the fraud's house to pound him.

    Part of the problem with classical martial arts is that there is not enough fighting -- this isn't unique to Daitoryu. Without duels, people spend way too much energy on political BS and don't get real skills. What's the point with all of this combat training if it primarily develops your ability to stab others in the back? It doesn't take any training to do that...

    It isn't my intention to start a silly flame war. I think this is a legitimate problem. I don't know if Karl Friday wants to be associated with this but his book "Legacies of the Sword" addresses the issue beautifully.

    Rich B

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    John Lindsey wrote,

    &gt;&gt;I think the problem is not with ability, but rather nobility...

    i am in no way a Daito-ryu master or even a good or skilled student, but having seen video of the late Takeda Tokimune, Kondo Katsuyuki, and this Kato fellow... well, this Kato guy doesn't move much like Takeda sensei did at all. better or worse, i don't know but nothing like Takeda or Kondo sensei's. it sort of looked like clumsy muscle powered jujutsu.

    Nathan Scott wrote,
    &gt;&gt;I could be mistaken, but didn't T. Takeda Sensei experience some kind of mental degenerative type disease for some time before his death? This is very possibly why there is room for confusion regarding who was officialy supposed to continue the art.

    i don't believe that Takeda sensei became ill until 1991. Kondo sensei was awarded soke dairi in 1988. this information is from "Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters". the info is in different parts of the book, so it is sort of hard to put the dates together. i would guess that things were set up long before any mental illnesses might have set in.


    gambatte!!!


    ------------------
    Chris Covington
    Daito-ryu study group
    Shinkendo
    Kodokan judo

  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I could be mistaken, but didn't T. Takeda Sensei experience some kind of mental degenerative type disease for some time before his death? This is very possibly why there is room for confusion regarding who was officialy supposed to continue the art.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Most here know I know diddly about daito ryu, except what read. I have a fondness for the written word and more than a passing fancy for the "aiki" arts.

    It seems this penchant for explaining things away with unverifiable explanations, in this case, daito ryu, goes back a couple of generations. I will base this on my reading of the series of interviews Pranin did with T. Takeda mostly concerning his father, Sokaku, with an honorable mention to Ueshiba M. It appears Sokaku was bitten by the same snake which may have bitten the son. It seems Tokimune had similar explanations for his father's rantings when Sokaku was in his eighties. The usual reason was "Please forgive my father. He is in his eighties" which would imply some kind of dememtia and does not seem so unlikely. Of course, in these interviews (BTW: you can find them on http://daito-ryu.org ) it is explained that, I believe, from a cousin, that Sokaku was a "wallpasser,"intimating he would walk through walls. It also seems that Sokaku, who was, by his son's admissions nearly deaf by then, but could hear things most humans with normal hearing could not. Apparently, he could tell the sane from the insane only by being in the same house with them, not having met them, and being on the floor above. Wow! I will not say that these interviews, much like those with Ueshiba late in life, shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt, but these are just a few of the things which are "proven" to be true because, well, "he said so." Ah, well, no one said MA wasn't any fun.

    That said, I have also been to the daitoryu.com site and it seems, other than the "hombu," is run out of Italy, as everything, seminars, teachers, etc, every happening within their walls happens there. Why? I am not so sure.

    If Tokimune did suffer from dementia of some sort, and he was ill less than ten years ago before succumbing in 1993, that this could easily be put to rest. The inner demons of Sokaku, however, is a big question mark, one that, I'm afraid, will never be verified. The true reasons for all of this, however, is based in business, and this part should not be so difficult to understand.



    ------------------
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

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