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Thread: Daito-ryu

  1. #16
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    Hi all,

    If I may be so bold as to address several different threads here with one post, please pardon me for perhaps taking a momentary tangent or two.

    Mark F. wrote: "It seems Tokimune had similar explanations for his father's rantings when Sokaku was in his eighties. The usual reason was "Please forgive my father. He is in his eighties" which would imply some kind of dememtia and does not seem so unlikely."

    Here is where a valid argument for studying koryu in Japan can be made. Not that I'm saying it can't be learned outside of it's cultural context with the right teacher, but Diane Skoss has a valid point in her controversial article. Try to follow as I attempt to explain what I see happening here:

    This thread was about Stanley Pranin (rightfully IMO) challenging the claims of a certain group of Tokimune's students who've formed their own organisation, and acted quite disrespectfully, or shamefully as some have put it. Stanley respectfully raised the raised the right questions for these folks, and has publically called them on the carpet.

    But now there has been added a new, I think less respectful take on the situation (regardless of whether it is valid or not). And that is regarding the state of Tokimune sensei's health and the possible effects it may have had on his mental faculties towards the end of his life, particularly with regard to the issue of sucession in Daito-ryu.

    I think that the question of legitimate sucession of Tokimune's mainline is clearly answered with regard to the dates that Kondo sensei received the designation of "soke dairi", and the fact that he possesses the menkyo kaiden from Tokimune sensei. So while the Seishinkan in question, may quibble over the legitimacy of Kondo sensei, and people everywhere can speculate about Tokimune's mental health, it accomplishes nothing, IMO. Nor does this sort of speculation prove anything. Rather it is, in my opinion only denigrating to Tokimune sensei's memory and therefore is not very respectful. Now what does this have to do with Mark's comment, and studying koryu in Japan?

    While we actually know very little about Tokimune sensei's health towards the end of his life, we’ve read tidbits published here and there and therefore it may SEEM reasonable to speculate about it, but I don’t think it serves any positive purpose. I certainly think it’s stretching it too far to include Tokimune's father, Sokaku into this speculation simply based on Tokimune's statements about his father's behaviour. Why? Because here is where I think living and training in Japan, and understanding Japanese people and cultures will provide a different perspective, and interpretation of Tokimune's comments quoted above.

    The Japanese are always self-depreciating and apologetic for their behavior and the behavior of their "group", whether it be their family or associates. But Sokaku was known (even when he was younger) for his frank and straightforward, if not blunt mannerisms. Nor did he become a martial art's genius and master without developing exceptional perception skills. Tokimune was raised primarily by his mother, and was no doubt, a more polite and proper Japanese (even Sokaku felt Tokimune was perhaps too nice a guy). Naturally, Tokimune would feel somewhat embarrassed by his father's loud or brash behavior and would be overly apologetic on his behalf. I would argue that from a Japanese perspective, Tokimune's comments about his father, demonstrate his good manners (ettiquette) much more than they actually say or imply anything about Sokaku's mental health. Given the Japanese cultural context, it’s much safer to say that Tokimune was more concerned about not offending anyone than really telling it like it is. Living and training in the culture of Japan can help give us much valuable insight into interpreting both the foreign manners and words of the Japanese, in this case especially koryu masters.

    For example, if I go to my friend's house in Kodaira, and she spends all day making her family's best traditional meal for me, her specialty. She will say, "It was nothing". Instead of proudly saying, "It's my number one recipe", she'll say "This is my juhachiban (#18) recipe."

    If I go next door and meet the neighbors, he'll introduce me not to his beautiful wife, but to his homely wife, his clumsy mother and dimwitted kids. This is not because his wife is ugly, his mother is clumsy and his kids are dumb, but because he want's me to feel much better about my own family.

    Now if you remember the story in it’s Japanese context: Sokaku accused Tokimune of associating with a lady who was mentally ill. This obviously drew attention to not only the lady, but the lady’s poor husband. Sokaku recognized the lady for what she was and saw right through her husband’s “secret”. The poor fellow was so embarrased about his wife’s mental health, that he wanted no one else to know that she wasn’t normal. Socially, the couple would be ostracized if her condition ever became suspected, they would never fit in. So what does Tokimune do to salvage this poor man’s face? He jumps in and say’s in effect, "Please excuse my aging, senile father, he’s really the crazy one around here."

    In Japan, everyone has to fit in. You don't want to stand out, or rock the boat by being different; either abnormal or exceptional. Sokaku was sharp, he WAS exceptional, and he tended to be rather quick to the point. He was an uncompromising old time samurai in a modern world, he didn’t beat around the bush, and he stood out like a sore thumb. I'm sure Tokimune was constantly apologizing and making escuses for his father's behavior, but in the cultural context and ettiquette of Japan, these were not likely statements of Tokimune’s actual sentiments, but rather of his good manners and humility. It is pure and unfounded speculation to call into question Sokaku's mental health by taking these comments out of their context. First of all, it accomplishes and proves nothing, and furthermore it's disrespectful, and unpolite to denigrate the memory of someone who's no longer living. Especially someone of Sokaku's great stature and genius as a martial artist. And finally, that is how false rumours are started and misunderstandings are propagated.

    If we rationalize Tokimune's comments about his father's behavior being due to senility or worse, then we'll naturally start to question also the claims that Tokimune made about his father's martial and perceptional abilities as well. Anything that sounds rather phenomenal we’d take with a pinch of salt and say, "Well, you know, Tokimune sensei was getting old and he was just bragging about his father's abilities, and exaggerating a bit, blah, blah, blah..." But while a westerner would naturally boast in pride of their father’s abilities and even exaggerate them, a properly cultured Japanese would understate their father’s abilities, and play them down. At any rate, the speculative Western approach only serves to diminish Sokaku's and Tokimune's memories, by removing them from their context.

    Likewise any attempt to learn the koryu outside of understanding their cultural context will also lead to the gradual misunderstanding and diminishing (watering down) of the transmission of the teachings of that tradition. That doesn’t mean that effective martial training can’t take place outside of Japan, but it does mean that certain aspects (and perhaps vital ones) could be lost, marginalized or misunderstood outside of their proper context. I might also add that the same can happen in modern day Japan too. With all the rapid changes taking place in Japan over the last 100+ years, there’s plenty of room for misunderstanding context there too. It only underscores the importance of having a knowledgable, capable and qualified instructor. It just so happens that most of the headmasters of classical traditions are still located in Japan. If you want koryu, don’t speculate about it, immerse yourself in the context and train!

    Kudos to Stanley for getting right to the po

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  3. #18
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    Hi Brently, thanks for your note.

    Please do not interpret this as my being an advocate of this latest group claiming to be the successor. I do not care who the successor is because I don't do Daitoryu. While I wonder whether it's worth the time to bother you with a couple of points, here they are.

    Folks disputing Kondo's claims might not have an insurmountable hurdle when they challenge the soke dairi.

    The way I've heard this spun is that the Soke Dairi was given for some specific purpose -- like a narrow power of attorney. The argument goes that soke dairi is not a formal title in Daitoryu (unless Tokimune made it one) and as a result it does not automatically bump Kondo above the other kyoju dairi as the man to lead the system.

    The menkyo kaiden, on the other hand, has carried official weight in the ryuha for a long time. That Kondo has one is not the issue in this case. The issue Kondo's detractors make is whether Kondo got the menkyo kaiden under shady circumstances by pulling it out of a senile teacher.

    Kondo says no, and so does Pranin and so do a large number of Kondo's contemporaries both in Daitoryu and in other arts. I have no reason to disbelieve Kondo.

    On the other hand, some detractors say he did. Both sides have financial and political interests vested in the answer and that's why the dispute is going on. "Disrespectful" inquiry as a consumer of Tokimune Sensei's condition is completely appropriate, whether one's a Japanese or a Westerner. If the allegation is true, this same thing goes on all the time in the West when a cunning beneficiary of a will gets the soon-to-be dead guy to beef up the beneficiary's take before he struggles for that final gasp.

    Which is where my complaint comes in. Someone in the dispute (or at least that someone's students) is inflating his credentials. If folks were on the mat enough, there wouldn't be a need to worry. When they're collecting dues, however, that's usually when the problems arise (and it's been this way for hundreds of years, incidentally).

    If this were to go to litigation, the arguments would probably be phrased in terms of lost economic opportunity because of the other's fraud. I suppose defamation is a possibility, but again the argument would probably have to be phrased in terms of destroyed economic potential because of the reputational damage.

    Again, please understand that I have no reason to disbelieve Kondo Sensei's claims. If I were practicing Daitoryu, I would train with Kondo Sensei because he is the teacher closest to me. If I lived in Osaka, I would go somewhere else.

    Nevertheless, if I were appointed Grand Pooh Bah of the Mooselodge-ryu (this only a generic example, not an insult on Daitoryu) and someone else was trying to steal the system, then I would probably get pissed too.

    I posted because someone asked about why Pranin-san wrote what he did at the time he did it and I reported some of the rumors I'd heard to explain. It's only an explanation of the arguments, it isn't advocacy because I don't know the answer and I don't have any serious interest in who is right.

    Best Regards,

    Rich B

    [This message has been edited by JosephBlow (edited 06-16-2000).]

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    Hello,

    I agree with most of Mr. Keen's post, but do not see the shame in discussing the possibility of an illness contributing to confusion around succession of an art. I also see nothing wrong with speculating, as this "voices thoughts" and hopefully leads to the research of facts based on the conclusions/possibilities produced from the speculation and discussion.

    I wasn't trying to imply anything in my previous post, and there is nothing to read between the lines. When someone is unfortunate enough to be struck with a mentally degenerative disease, they often forget events and things they have said before, as well as people.

    It sounds like Kondo Sensei's right to lead the family line is ligitimate (documented) and the dates as noted appear to be before the aledged illness anyway. But I have heard of headmasters of other styles who have unknowingly promised Sokeship to one person verbally and then told another person later something else. It's these verbal comments and the possibility of "second thoughts" that can lead to confusion by some, and outright fraud by others who may claim to have been promised something verbally by someone who is known to have a memory problem or has already passed.

    If I remember correctly, there was also some last minute changes/confusion as to whether Kisshomaru Ueshiba was to inherit Aikido or not (which he did) as Ueshiba Sensei got closer to the end of his life. These kinds of things happen, and while it is sad to see in a reputable teacher, it is all part of the life cycle and I don't see why it should be kept hush hush - especially when it is public knowledge.

    The other thing is that Tokimune Takeda Sensei passed away rather recently, so there are plenty of students and instructors with first hand experience that could (if they chose) speak about what things were like during that time. It is not unrealistic that we might gain a reasonable idea of the events by discussing the subject with some of these people, rather than acting like it never happened.

    Typically a ryu-ha is a family line of transmission, so the Soke tend to be specific about either passing the art to a blood relative or if necessary to an "adopted" family member. This *could* be the reason why T.Takeda S. gave Kondo Sensei "Soke dairi" ("substitute for the headmaster" - authority to act in an official capacity on behalf of the headmaster) as opposed to Soke. Was Kondo Sensei supposed to groom a Takeda for the Soke when they were old enough or qualified technically to do so?

    BTW, Menkyo Kaiden is a license of transmission, which is why it is in the "official Daito ryu curriculum", whereas titles like Soke dairi are administrative titles, and may or may not be included in documentation as such.

    No offense intended towards anyone, and I'm not supporting outside claims to the family line of Daito ryu, just interested in discussing the circumstances of the pass of leadership a bit and why there might be *any* room for argument over who is rightfully in leadership.

    Regards,


    ------------------
    Nathan Scott
    Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo
    Tsuki Kage dojo
    Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum

    [This message has been edited by Nathan Scott (edited 06-16-2000).]

  5. #20
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    Brently,
    I did say I based it on that series of interviews by Stan Pranin, and I did not take anything out of context, at least, no more than you have. I simply brought up a point, that if there were any questions of Tokimune's health problems, it should be easy to prove, if necessary (personally, I have found it a constant that the great teachers of anything cannot be judged by what children say, just as some of Sokaku's feats of "magic" cannot be verified with any accuracy. It is the same in the interviews with M. Ueshiba and K. Ueshiba. I also made it clear it came from said interviews. It seemed another justification for something was being made on an assumption which should be easily verified.

    If anything, the Japanese are known to care for their aging parents, something Americans could learn from. But since questions were being asked, I thought something from the horse's mouth would be appropriate. Call it a coincidence or exaggeration, it did come from those interviews, and the inference is easily understandable. Possibly I should have copied all five of those interviews and have let everyone make there own assumptions, however, a question of someone's health who died only sevn years ago, was, again, brought up. A lot of facts about father and son, in this case, have been called fact when it came from Tokimune's mouth, and many of these statements have indeed come directly from these interviews. During the last "great debate" on daito ryu having the one and only true aiki of a few months ago, I found many of the "facts" published came straight from the son's words as gospel. However, you have brought up a point of how one should read something, but no new, or old, information was forthcoming. People talk about the dead all the time without being accused of lacking "resect for the dead." How T. Takeda explained his father's behavior was not the point, but rather how far some will go to believe obvious exaggerations of what had happened. It was only a discussion of the ancient tea ceremony which brought about the outburst of S. Takeda in the first place. It was not meant with any disrespect, only a seeming coincidence of both father and son suffering some form of dementia. This is hardly news. Living in Japan had nothing to do with it, but if people are going to point out these exaggerations as the truth, then a discussion about it is certainly no shame.

    Sincerely,

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    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  6. #21
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    BTW: I have also found the website in question to be "questionable" to say the least.

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    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  7. #22
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    For those following this topic, you might want to swing over to the Aikido Journal BBS and follow some of the recent developments and new posts by Mr. Pranin regarding the history:

    http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000013.html
    http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000018.html

    I for one can see where there is room for confusion now, and also that it is a sticky situation.

    Although the issue of Daito ryu leadership may not be resolved in the next couple of weeks, we may find ourselves with more facts or at least first hand information than we did before, and that will have achieved something.

    ando,

    Guy-san, thanks for the info. I hope the transition to the nidai Soke is smooth when the time comes!

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
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    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Daito-ryu

    For the historians out there.

    Which of the Koryu would be classified as Aiki arts?

    I assume Daito ryu did not invent the term.

  9. #24
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    P. Rehse wrote: "For the historians out there: which of the koryu would be classified as aiki arts? I assume Daito-ryu did not invent the term."

    The short answer is none of 'em. Or all of 'em. "Aiki" is a concept found in most, if not all, koryu; what it means and how it's used is something that varies with the system. It's not that big a deal, in the way that aikido makes it out to be, merely a concept or tactic to be used in defeating an enemy. The term "aiki" has been around for hundreds of years, as you surmised, and was definitely not invented by Daito-ryu, although it probably has the most sophisticated understanding of the idea.

    Hope this helps.

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    Meik;

    God I hate those yes and no answers. I was being told in a conversation that only Aikido and Daito-ryu were aiki-arts and I felt, based on other sources, that that could not be right.

    I knew the term was quite old - that the meaning varied - but I was hoping that some Koryu would calssify itself as such so that I could pull the old "Yeah but what about ....".

    Thanks for the input.

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    I'm taking a guess in saying that aiki predates Japanese combat history, and that the Japanese might have gotten it from the Chinese. While I suspect there are few Chinese practitioners today who have aiki (which, of course, would have a different name in Chinese), I have felt the application of one of its principles from an elderly Chinese taiji/qigong practitioner, some years ago.

    The Japanese were heavily influenced by China for hundreds of years, in everything from civic pursuits to literary and artistic method. It's plausible that the Japanese picked up some of the ancient principles of mechanical and neurophysiological manipulation and control from the Chinese as well.

    Of course, different arts call different things "aiki," these days, so it's pointless to elaborate. I do believe that Meik is being a bit casual about aiki being "merely a concept or tactic." Aiki is a deeply complex series of principles that in themselves comprise a discipline of training. Combined with weapons use and empty-hand jujutsu waza, aiki (at least, the aiki I'm familiar with) quadruples the power of the techniques. Nothing to sneeze at. Just because it is one of a number of systems of study within various koryu, doesn't make it inconsequential or "just another thing to study." It's the plutonium that makes the bomb go kablooey.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 28th May 2001 at 11:38.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Default Re: Aiki-classification

    Originally posted by PRehse
    For the historians out there.

    Which of the Koryu would be classified as Aiki arts?

    I assume Daito ryu did not invent the term.
    As I see it the difference between Aiki in Aikido is that M. Ueshiba Seinsei redefined the term. And made it stick for his art! Now some from the more traditional arts have a hard time with that, and many folks within Aikido want to redefine it under their own terms. Fact is it’s supposed to mean something different to us (Aikido students).

    There was a time when Aki meant kicking in a door to hooch, and through power of your presence and their fear freeze everyone in there. Now there is a time when Aiki means something different and a hell of lot more useable in family, work, and social environments. Of course there are many Aikido folks who believe Aikido is about war, but that’s another discussion for another forum.

    I think one definition no longer fits.
    Dennis Hooker
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  13. #28
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    C. Goldfield wrote: "Of course, different arts call different things 'aiki' these days, so it's pointless to elaborate. I do believe that Meik is being a bit casual about aiki being "merely a concept or tactic." Aiki is a deeply complex series of principles that in themselves comprise a discipline of training. Combined with weapons use and empty-hand jujutsu waza, aiki (at least, the aiki I'm familiar with) quadruples the power of the techniques. Nothing to sneeze at. Just because it is one of a number of systems of study within various koryu, doesn't make it inconsequential or 'just another thing to study.' It's the plutonium that makes the bomb go kablooey."

    This being a kobudo forum, I based my comments on a review of documents from different koryu (originals and photocopies) and from discussions with senior exponents and/or headmasters of these ryu. Being an old, but reform(ulat)ed, aiki bunny myself, it was a topic of interest to me way back when and a thing I asked a lot of people about.

    Both Dennis and Cady are right in saying that there are different definitions of the word/concept, "aiki" and that's to be expected. The Japanese have a great saying about this: "ju nin, to iro" (ten people, ten colors). Or, as my high school swimming coach liked to say, "different strokes for different folks."

    What I meant by "merely a concept or tactic to be used in defeating an enemy" is that, within the context of classical Japanese budo, very little special consideration is given to the idea of "aiki" other than as a way of dealing with a specific situation. Of course, lots of equivalent terms exist, but they still are used as "shudan" (a means of accomplishing something) rather than the quasi-mystic or semi-religious manner one finds in many aikiDO dojo. Not that that's "wrong" in any sense, either, but it is (was?) a completely different context from what concerned old-timey bushi.

    Again, my sources are original densho and conversations with the senior exponents and teachers of different koryu. I'm not saying this on the basis of supposition, nor am I talking about a modern system such as aikido. I was talking about koryu in my post, and nothing else.

  14. #29
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    Aiki, according to Tokimune Takeda in one interview, refers to Go no sen methods dealing with an attack. Even in modern Aikido that strikes me as an accurate defination. All of the techinques in Aikido rely on that principle. I assume Koryu make use of use of it to one degree or another but don't rely upon it excusively the way Aikido does. Even Daito-ryu seems to have some Sen Sen methods in it's cirriculum, and in the same interview Takeda mentions that the police don't rely on Aikido exclusively but rather study a mix of Aikido, Judo and other methods. Perhaps "go no sen waza/methods/Kata " is the easiest way to classify the approach of Aikido/Daito-ryu in Koyru systems. Arts that specialize in " go no sen " methods might be thought as "Aiki arts" if that's how you want to think about it.

    Mike Praskey

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    Interesting, Mr. Prasky. My experience has been that practitioners on a higher level in many arts (including aikido) initiate the attack... either by detecting the intent of their opponents before the latter are able to initiate their own action, or by using some subtle means to draw the opponents into attacking predictably so that that action can be exploited. There gets to be a point at which it becomes difficult to tell who is the aggressor and who is the "defender."

    While perhaps go no sen is a mainstay, in principle, in aikido, I wouldn't say that's what's practiced by many of its exponents. And, it certainly doesn't seem to be the case in traditional Daito-ryu or its classical forebears -- arts that were meant to be combative, not "self-defense."

    With all due respect to T. Takeda, I'd be more interested in hearing what S. Takeda would have to say about Daito-ryu strategy and tactics on a higher level.
    Cady Goldfield

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