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Thread: Daito-ryu

  1. #31
    Dan Harden Guest

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    "The purpose of this art is not to be killed, not to be struck, not to be kicked, and we will not strike, will not kick and will not kill.
    It is completly for self defense"...............

    Takeda Sokaku
    Interview, Ozaka Yoichi
    July 1930

    What did he mean in exact detail? What were his actions VS his words?
    How did he see the nature of conflict?
    Conflict resolution?
    I haven't a clue.

    His qoute can be taken several ways. What is the best defense in an about to erupt encounter? Is attacking first not defensive?

    War is war,
    seizing is seizing,
    Police work is police work
    pedestrian arts are for pedestrians
    modern laws are difficult.

    Principles are principles
    How they can be used or expressed can be a complicated subject.

    Dan

  2. #32
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    Originally posted by MPraskey
    Aiki, according to Tokimune Takeda in one interview, refers to Go no sen methods dealing with an attack. Even in modern Aikido that strikes me as an accurate defination. All of the techinques in Aikido rely on that principle.
    Sorry Mike - most Aikido training is go no sen just because most people in the class are relative beginners and most classes cater to the mass. Sen no sen is part of Aikido - my class was small and I was able to teach these things to students with less than a year of Aikido. In my opinion sen no sen is what make Aikido work.

    Originally posted by Cady
    With all due respect to T. Takeda, I'd be more interested in hearing what S. Takeda would have to say about Daito-ryu strategy and tactics on a higher level..
    Well good luck considering that Sogaku was illiterate. I am sure he taught his son well.

  3. #33
    MPraskey Guest

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    Intrestingly enough, reportedly, Sokaku Takeda could read, but
    was unable to write Kanji. Being in that situation myself that doesn't suprise me. Recognizing the characters is much easier then practicing them so that you can produce them.

    " My experience has been that practitioners on a higher level in many arts (including aikido) initiate the attack... either by detecting the intent of their opponents before the latter are able to initiate their own action, or by using some subtle means to draw the opponents into attacking predictably so that that action can be exploited. "

    Go No sen as I understand it is defined as "response action, luring an opponent into making a foolish attack so that a counter attack may be used. " (The defintion is from Koryu bujutsu by the way)

    I can't think of a single Aikido technique that doesn't fit that critieria, not one.

    Sen no sen as I've heard it defined is "using inititive to prevent the opponent's taking the initiative."

    Initiative means the action of taking the first step or move. Aikido *never* does this. Even when you move at the same time as an opponent
    you are *still* responding to the stimulus of the attack. If the opponent didn't attack you, there would be no technique. If you disagree, then please name for me the waza where you go after a sesile person who has neither struck or grabbed you. If you teach that kind of technique, you certianly have the most inovative brand of Aikido I've ever heard of Mr.Rehse.

    I cannot think of *any* Aikido technqiue that teaches
    purely agressive action that would fit the definition of Sen no sen or Sen sen no sen. However Daito-ryu reportedly has techniques like this. Tokimune Takeda was not his father, he was however the sucessor of the art. He studied Daito-ryu much longer and more faitfully then anyone of us here could claim to, *and* he studied under his father, which is something none of us can claim, I don't see why not being his father should make him any less of an authority on Daito-ryu technique, particularly when his father trained him to take over the art. The specific question he's asked is "are there many techinques in which one attacks first in Daito-ryu? his response is:

    " For example, the police learned jujutsu as arrest techniques so it must be active. They attack first; it is not self-defense. As I have mentioned, the sword is go no sen--you deflect or evade an attack when the opponent strikes and then cut him. Go no sen does not work when a policeman arrests a criminal, he must attack to catch a fleeing criminal and then must tie him up with rope or handcuff him " (Pranin, 54-55)

    Kodo Horikawa, another of S.Takeda's students noted that he taught Jujutisu to physically powerful poeple, Aiki jujutsu to less powerful people and sword techniques to those who were already skilled with swords. That shows that while Aiki was in important part of the Daito-ryu cirriculum, there is more to then just Aiki. for Go no sen, there is Aiki, for Sen sen and sen no sen there is Jujutsu and weapon techniques. Together they form a complete system. Not every situation can be handled with go no sen technique, there are plenty where attacking first is the way to go.

    Mike Praskey.

  4. #34
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    Originally posted by MPraskey
    I can't think of a single Aikido technique that doesn't fit that critieria, not one.

    Sen no sen as I've heard it defined is "using inititive to prevent the opponent's taking the initiative."

    Initiative means the action of taking the first step or move. Aikido *never* does this. Even when you move at the same time as an opponent
    you are *still* responding to the stimulus of the attack. If the opponent didn't attack you, there would be no technique. If you disagree, then please name for me the waza where you go after a sesile person who has neither struck or grabbed you. If you teach that kind of technique, you certianly have the most inovative brand of Aikido I've ever heard of Mr.Rehse.
    MY my we are formal. I study Shodokan Aikido - the organization founded by Kenji Tomiki. Sen no sen, or siezing the initiative is demonstrated in several techniques of the Koryu Goshin no Kata. Most noteably the first which is oshitaoshi (ikkyo) which has a similar variation seen in Ueshiba's Budo Renshu. There are several other instances in formal kata and it is quite common in full resistance randori.

    Answer quick - in six hours I head to the Honbu of my style to study for three months. It's good to go back home if only for a visit.

  5. #35
    MPraskey Guest

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    I've heard briefly of Tomiki Aikido, unfortunately I haven't heard
    much more about it then the name. If I understand correctly you're saying you have techniques where you actively attack a target that hasn't moved against you? (Ie. hasn't grabbed or struck you and is just standing there?) If so I'd put that down as Sen no sen technique, it would be the first time I've ever seen it in Aikido, and I'd be intrested in seeing more of it.

    I wouldn't classify that as "Aiki " however. Tokumune makes the distinction between Aiki and Kiai. Or, Go no sen and Sen no sen if you perfer. Go no sen involves reciving an attack. If you're saying that your style teaches a Sen no sen style of techniques. Where you attack the target, ie. you employ your own energy rather then steal it from the target we're talking about a diffrent approach here.

    That's not a bad thing, in fact it's a deficency I see in many forms of Aikido, and would like to see remedied. Daito-ryu doesn't seem to rely upon a pure Go no sen approach, though it seems to favor that strategy over the other two available. I'd put your style down
    as a composite art, someting a bit closer to What Daito-ryu is, rather then the pure go-no-sen art that Aikido has degenerated into.

    We're really digressing here though

    So how do we classify Aiki in Koryu? Go-no-sen seems to be used in almost every art to one degree or another. I think it could be said that an art that favors the Go No sen approach over the other two strategies is an "aiki" art.

    Mike Praskey.
    Last edited by MPraskey; 1st June 2001 at 16:23.

  6. #36
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    The first technique of Tomiki's suwari waza kata is an ikkyo that captures the preparation for attack. This is sen sen timing. However, if you attack a completely inactive opponent, you are putting yourself at risk.

    I have heard distinctions of types of Ki including "soft ki", "hard ki", "capturing ki" etc. For overall Koryu definition and usage, we should probably defer to Mr. Skoss' edification.

    Jack Bieler

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    I'm aware of that quote from S. Takeda regarding self-defense, which is in Stanley Pranin's Daito-ryu book. We can endlessly speculate as to whether Takeda was speaking about his modern surroundings and circumstances, or whether he was expressing his basic philosophy from the start. Self-defense using combat arts is a modern interpretation, IMO. There was a time when many of the skills Takeda had learned were used for combat and to maim and kill. In peace times, the philsophy had to be adapted to a self-defense oriented one. The methods of the older skill set may be preserved for accuracy's sake, but they are practiced and interpreted more subtly. We will never know what Takeda knew in his heart-of-hearts, but we can guess that his view had to fit in with the times and environment, just as old warriors must learn to decompress their instincts when they are no longer in battle.

    That aside, there is, again, a very fuzzy gray area where "attack" and "defense" meet. To a bystander watching one man strike another, it might appear that the striker was the aggressor. In fact, he could have detected the intent to attack in his opponent, and so seized the initiative to strike first. Is he truly attacking? Or is he defending? On higher strategic levels, the lines and distinctions blur.

    Mike, it sounds like I interpreted the meaning of go-no-sen differently than you. I take it to mean a purely defensive (as in "Oh, s#$t!") action of receiving and neutralizing the attack. But then again, when we discuss the blurring of distinctions in application, there is a point where we scratch our heads trying to decide whether what we're witnessing is go-no-sen, sen-no-sen or sen-sen-no-sen. And even the practioners might not be consciously aware of their actions anymore, either.
    Cady Goldfield

  8. #38
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    Originally posted by MPraskey with respect to go no sen
    All of the techinques in Aikido rely on that principle. I assume Koryu make use of use of it to one degree or another but don't rely upon it excusively the way Aikido does.
    If folks are going to discuss inititive in aikido, it needs to be done on the aikido forum.

    V/R,
    Greg Jennings
    mailto:gregs_shell_account@yahoo.com
    http://www.capitalcityaikido.com/
    http://www.takemusu.org/

  9. #39
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    Originally posted by MPraskey
    I'd put your style down as a composite art, someting a bit closer to What Daito-ryu is, rather then the pure go-no-sen art that Aikido has degenerated into.

    We're really digressing here though

    So how do we classify Aiki in Koryu? Go-no-sen seems to be used in almost every art to one degree or another. I think it could be said that an art that favors the Go No sen approach over the other two strategies is an "aiki" art.

    Mike Praskey.
    Tomiki started with Ueshiba in 1926 - well before what Ueshiba was teaching stopped being Daito-ryu and became Aikido. He stopped teaching at Aikiaki Honbu long after. I don't think you could call it a composite art - maybe transitional????

    That was an interesting definition of an Aiki art - let me think about it some. My initial feeling that linking Aiki to go no sen wont work but its worth thinking about.

  10. #40
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    Hi all,

    I agree that this thread has gone way off topic (though in an interesting direction). It would be great if this thread could be split and tossed in either the Aikido or AJJ forum for further discussion.

    The following is a section from an essay I've been working on in reference to aiki:

    One of the first known usages of the term aiki actually extends back to the founder of Shinkage ryu, Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Hidetsuna. Other ryu-ha that later subsumed the Shinkage ryu kabala include traditions like Jikishinkage ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Komagawa Kaishin ryu and Owari kan ryu. These traditions are primarily sword or weapons based systems, and as such it can be presumed that the term aiki was not really used in
    taijutsu (body arts) until much later; Kito ryu Jujutsu being the earliest taijutsu-based tradition found to date. Even Daito ryu Aikijujutsu was said to have been a weapons focused system until the Meiji restoration, when the current headmaster was advised to specialize in taijutsu instead.
    I also have a quote from Kunishige Nobuyuki (Shinden Isshin-ryu), dating from the late 1800's/ early 1900's referring to aiki in his art.

    In any event, terms like "go no sen", "sen no sen" and "sen sen no sen" are tactics, not techniques. These tactics can be applied to most, if not all techniques - including aikido. To work within one "timing" is to greatly limit the application of aikido.

    Those interested in the great aiki debate are invited to browse through the following threads in the AJJ area:

    aiki v1.0

    aiki v2.0

    aiki v3.0


    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 1st June 2001 at 19:27.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #41
    MPraskey Guest

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    Mr. Biler:

    I'd have to see it to really understand it. It's one thing to talk
    about it, to get out and do it is quite another.

    For the record, I'm taking the definition of Go-no-sen from indviduals who have far more experence with the intent of the concept then I do. It just strikes me as away to understand how what we consider "aiki" fits into koryu, and what arts might favor an "aiki" approach.

    It does appear to me that Go-no-sen can involve a proactive "bait" that entices the target to attack, but I doubt it's necessary for something to be considered as such. The heart of it seems to be moving after the opponent has moved, or luring him into moving.

    Sen sen as far as I can tell looks like a pre-emptive strike, just
    hitting someone out of the blue or grabbing them and throwing them.

    that's not to say it's not defense against an impending attack, it's
    just that you're moving before the other guy can bring his fists or
    his weapon to bear. The classic example is some one threatens to "cut your heart out " then puts their hand in their pocket, at which point you pounce on them. As far as you can tell they're reaching for a weapon to carry out the threat, from that angle you are defending yourself. You could also easily be the agressor using this method.

    If you were using a Go-no sen meathod you might wait until the guy actualy tries to take a stab at you to do anything. For obvious reasons this might not be the best idea

    On the other hand, if you're dealing with a slasher who you know can put up a good fight has the knife out and ready and you want him to come at you, you might taunt him or fake an injury or whatever. so he commits and you can apply a technique that's safer then trying to fight him "mano e mano"

    It might be difficult to figure out, but I for one will keep trying.
    Other wise we might as well close the thread

    Mike Praskey

  12. #42
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    Default to attack or not to attack....

    B: Does that mean ato no sen? (This term refers to a late response to an attack.)

    O-Sensei: Absolutely not. It is not a question of either sensen no sen or sen no sen. If I were to try to verbalize it I would say that you control your opponent without trying to control him. That is, the state of continuous victory. There isn't any question of winning over or losing to an opponent. In this sense, there is no opponent in aikido. Even if you have an opponent, he becomes a part of you, a partner you control only.

    from
    http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...heiUeshiba.asp
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  13. #43
    MarkF Guest

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    Szczepan,
    Another example why the old guy, like most of the old guys, were difficult to understand.

    I read that interview a while back. There is a reason he was referred to, in the sixties, as the oldest hippy by many people I knew.

    I once asked someone who does DR AJJ if, since s/he said there was no "tai (postures)" because there was no offense in DR. The reply was that no, DR AJJ was not all go no sen, and that it was very much sen no sen and sen sen no sen. Later, this same person felt secure with the dojo mates that they could, and would, kill. Kinda puts a ! in the idea of sen sen no sen.

    Does this mean there is only defensive postures (Jigotai), and no attack postures in doing aikido?

    Is this a basic, but important part of aikido? I know about the tai sabaki, so this would mean there are/is kind[s] of posture[s]. That is an assumption, but that is an assumption made tha with many who do judo/jujutsu, that it is purely go no sen.

    I'll begin by saying that there is a lot of sen no sen, and if one passes go, even sen sen no sen.

    Mark

  14. #44
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    Default Common Sens(e)

    Again, we're coming back to the issue of tactical perception. In application, there is no clear-cut, black-and-white distinction of "go no sen, sen no sen, sen sen no sen" when you are in combat. The terms provide basic definitions for the sake of learning, but once instilled, they transcend clear demarcation.

    Furthermore, it has nothing to do with killing, as someone has suggested on this forum. Go/sen/sen sen no sen has only to do with a tactical principle, and not the ultimate results of its application. This principle is a natural part of many martial arts, *including* aikido as M. Ueshiba approached it. You just have to have the eyes to see the subtle way in which it is applied.
    Cady Goldfield

  15. #45
    MPraskey Guest

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    Unfortunately this is becoming more about Aikido then it is Koryu, but I admit there is a correlation. Knowing how to classify Aikido makes it possible to classify Koryu that have similar features.

    Mark, ask yourself, what technique in Aikido allows you to attack someone the way you could in Karate, etc. Even in judo or jujutsu
    it's possible to just grab someone and toss them. I've never seen
    anything remotely like that in Aikido. Maybe it exists in some style of it, but I've certainly never run across it anywhere. I've never seen a waza that's as proactive as as an art like Karate or even something like Jujutsu or Judo?

    It all does become blurred in combat, but we're not talking about combat, we're talking about teaching and learning and the tactics that are taught and learned.

    Mike Praskey.

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