Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 141

Thread: Grappling

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Dear Neil:

    "....That's a movie approach to swordwork. You have a weapon in your hands, use it. If you end up close, you may have to use some other technique, but closing the distance on purpose to use the sword as a hanbo is just silly...."

    I agree with your view. The beginning of one of our oldest hyung starts with a pommel strike as an integral part of the draw, but I don't see me closing with a person in order to use that technique. There are circumstance where the ko-dung-i (J. tsuba) may actually inter-catch (either intentionally or not) and at that point, as someone mentioned earlier the intent seems to be create enough tension whereby a person can simultaneously jump back and strike at the same time. However, we are taught a series of elbow-locks, hip-throws and sweeps for such circumstances but that is in the kum-bup side of the tradition. I have never seen the Kumdo people use such methods. As a matter of fact, as I think of it now, our polearm/staff methods have techniques for close-in grappling, but I don't think I have even seen such maneuvers in kata for the naginata. I guess what I am hearing is that in Kendo such material exists but it is used very sparingly, yes? I would suppose that the kata are also devoid of such maneuvers as well, or do they just tuck it away a bit better? Thoughts?


    BTW: I had heard that the headgear (mori) and chestguard (hari) can be used for a choke of sorts, but nobody mentioned more direct choking techniques. I am assuming that these are completely ruled out, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Neil M: the pic comes from

    http://japandiving.com/faq.htm

    Weird, huh? I only chose it after an unsatisfying Google image search for tai atari and tsuba-zeriai.

    Bruce:

    There are two grappling techniques in two of the kendo no kata and both use the shorter weapon. I don't think it's safe to say grappling techniques exist in kendo and I'm not sure if they ever did or were just part of the rough-and-tumble play of a previous generation of kendoists. Grappling techniques were probably imported from other traditions, like judo, jujutsu or folk sumo, or improvised. But that's just me thinking out loud - I'm not sure grappling maneuvers were ever codified into kendo.

    Grappling with the kendo armor, like choking with the doh or trying to pull the men off, I think was just part of the rough play, and was seen as character building, fun, or spririt-forging.

    My two drachmas...
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Ft Meade, MD
    Posts
    48
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by gendzwil
    That's a movie approach to swordwork. You have a weapon in your hands, use it. If you end up close, you may have to use some other technique, but closing the distance on purpose to use the sword as a hanbo is just silly.
    Why, because it's unconventional? There is nothing movie or flashy about it. It's about suppressing the opponent's ability to move or attack effeciently. WHo says that you can only use a sword from a certain distance and then only to cut? Why not close the distance? If I close on a long weapon, haven't I taken part of its advantage away? I understand what you are saying, but I think it is a shallow view of using the tools you have in any possible way.
    Joshua Reis

    I'd rather die living, than live dying

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Ft Meade, MD
    Posts
    48
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    One more thought. The thing in your hand is a tool. Your body and mind are the weapons. Whatever you are doing works or fails because of the body and the mind, not what is in your hands.

    And just in case I didn't make myself clear, I was advocating ALWAYS closing and doing this sort of thing. My point was that it does have a place. Take care and be safe, everyone.
    Joshua Reis

    I'd rather die living, than live dying

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    "....I don't think it's safe to say grappling techniques exist in kendo and I'm not sure if they ever did or were just part of the rough-and-tumble play of a previous generation of kendoists. Grappling techniques were probably imported from other traditions, like judo, jujutsu or folk sumo, or improvised...."

    Thanks. I can buy that. Is there anyone here that trains in ken-jutsu who can speak to how much they focus on grappling in that training?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    Originally posted by Aozora
    I disagree a bit with the other Neil--I don't think it's entirely unrealistic. My opinion seems to be backed up somewhat by the kata, where the shoto techniques include some 'jujutsu' in grabbing the opponents elbow.
    Yeah, but in that case you're already in close due to previous actions. You didn't step in past that threatening sword just to grapple with the guy - that would get you killed.

    Originally posted by Althaur
    Why not close the distance? If I close on a long weapon, haven't I taken part of its advantage away?
    Sure, but you're dead. Try doing some searches here for "tachi-dori" and see the opinions of some very senior budoka from both armed and unarmed traditions who agree that stepping inside the range of a weapon is a last-ditch effort that is 99.9% unlikely to work. You've got a weapon in your hands, use it. If you happen to end up close after an exchange of blades, then use your grappling techniques. But don't forget that while you're fumbling around close with grappling, there's not one but two swords in between you, and you're probably going to get cut if only accidentally.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    Originally posted by Althaur
    One more thought. The thing in your hand is a tool. Your body and mind are the weapons. Whatever you are doing works or fails because of the body and the mind, not what is in your hands.
    Crap. The reason you have a weapon is that it is an advantage. Give an absolute beginner a knife, spend 1 hour teaching him some basic patterns, and a judoka with a lifetime's experience is going to get cut a big majority of the time going in.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Baton Rouge, La.
    Posts
    356
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Yeah, but in that case you're already in close due to previous actions. You didn't step in past that threatening sword just to grapple with the guy - that would get you killed.

    You're right, and I made that point later on in the post. If you have a sword, the advantage should be pressed at all times.

    To answer Bruce: grappling, choking stikeing, etc. are largely banned from most kendo dojo in my experience. Some do practice it on occasion like Charlie is saying, and there is a classical kendo group that incorporates the pre-WWII style into their curriculum. By and large though, it's absent from kendo, due to what Neil is describing--if you're trying to learn the sword, learn the sword.
    --Neil Melancon--

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Dear Neil:

    ".....Sure, but you're dead. Try doing some searches here for "tachi-dori" and see the opinions of some very senior budoka from both armed and unarmed traditions who agree that stepping inside the range of a weapon is a last-ditch effort that is 99.9% unlikely to work......"

    Interesting point. I myself eschew sparring for this very reason. In a series of encounters with partners armed with wooden jian (and I with a muk guem) my partner repeatedly parried my sword down with his jian, grasped my wrist with his open hand then thrust me with his recovered jian. When I asked him not to do this, he seemed to think that I was responding to having my defenses violated at will rather than realizing that had I been free to use my weapon to its fullest capability such a maneuver would have been unthinkable. I find that sparring always requires that one treats to one set of limitations or another such as half-speed, limited targets and so forth. As I am writing this I recall a TV presentation on the HISTORY CHANNEL in which duelling was examined both as an ideal and as a practical experience and there was very little correlation between the two!

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    40
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hello,

    I realize the majority of responses here are Kendo-based and as such the comments are accurately justified. However, just to offer another perspective, I don't study in Kendo (much), I study Kenjutsu, where EVERYTHING is a target, not just a few, and more like the Pre-WWII Kendo, anything goes.

    That said, we absolutely use different techniques to overcome certain situations. Keeping your distance and using the length of your sword is a smart thing. But, so is closing the distance. I mean, you wouldn't ALWAYS stand there and exchange long kicks with someone when you could close in and hit him inside. Now swords are obviously sharper than limbs, but closing the distance and moving past the point where the opponent can use his sword effectively is certainly advantagous on occasion (and there are many different techniques of doing this). Of course, just don't stay there

    Now that you're in, yes, some tripping and grappling is often incorporated. But you have to be very careful and have the situation lend itself to it. You are still dealing with a sharp weapon after all and like the gentleman said earlier, chances are you will get cut.

    To wrap up, like any technique you keep it in your arsenal and use it apporpriately. We do, in Kenjutsu, use in-close techniues and some grappling (more accurately it would be akin to Aikido or Happkido controling/maneuvering moves.) But we also use those when practicing unarmed vs sword situations. It comes down to being as prepared as possible. Things don't always work, but do sometimes, might as well be ready.

    But for the record, while closing the distance is common in our fighitng, the grappling is not. Because if you ever go against a knife or sword unarmed, you're going to get cut. It's just a quesiton of how bad.

    Thank you for reading my rambling opinion.

    Derek May

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Lindenhurst, Illinois
    Posts
    1,114
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Dear Derek:

    In Hapkido, when practiced as Mu-Do, moves used without a weapon are nearly identical to those used with a weapon. One of the historical connections that supports this is the reality of finding oneself in an exchange and losing the use of ones own weapon either through damage or disarm. Considering the desperate circumstances this would pose, your idea of getting to the inside of the attackers' capability has much to recommend it. Nor do we pretend that once inside we are prepared to execute some sophisticated aiki maneuver or technique. I think that it was Ueyshiba who said something about 90% of Aikido being atemi and that is sorta what we do once we have closed. Elbows and knees to get them to understand the error of their ways and then choke, locks, projections or throws in order to convert them to our way of seeing things.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    894
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    A quick comment, I think the differnce between the examples of the 'grappling' intrinsic to the kendo kata and what is being discussed here is that the kendo kata employs open hand work in order to use a weapon while others here have suggested using a weapon in order to grapple. I agree with Neil G's comments that if you have a weapon, it's absurd to *attempt* to transition to grappling. If you lock up, so be it, but even then your open hand work ideally moves you back into a position where you can again employ your weapon. Just look at older jujutsu/aikijujutsu systems where grappling is used long enough to be able to deploy and use a lethal weapon.

    At a seminar with Ellis Amdur I attended years ago we did some tanto-dori. Before we started the techniques, he held up a wooden tanto and asked, "What's this?" Response one: A tanto!, Response two: No we should treat it like a real knife!

    His response, "No this an honest to God 6th degree black belt in whatever you're most scared of." In other words, the introduction of a weapon is a HUGE tactical advantage and does wonders to wipe away years of training...
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Long Beach, CA, USA
    Posts
    318
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I would disagree with the above statements against closing the distance with a swordsman and grappling and/or striking/controlling. We’re not kendo, but in our system we intentionally close distance to crowd the opponent and inhibit his maneuverability with his own weapon, not only for grappling/controlling but in our regular sword work as well.

    Going against a swordsman unarmed as opposed to having a sword in your hand is totally different. We will often use our weapon to control or suppress his while doing entering, until he is controlled, disrupted or dropped, and either then cut or cut as he goes down. Sometimes the sword itself is used to take him down and cut him simultaneously, and he is sometimes cut and struck on entering as well. More often we take hold of his weapon rather than just his hand, but there are a great many variables. This is most often employed as the opponent strikes at us… as opposed to being an aggressive tactic. I have found that those not experienced in more closed-quartered fighting with swords tend to be thrown off a bit by the intentional closing of distance. They don’t expect you to get that close when they’re holding a 3ft razorblade.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    Of course closing with the weapon due to some kaeshi-waza or whatever is a whole other kettle of fish. The intent is still to cut the opponent, though. If this is what Althaur meant, my apologies. I've just seen too many demos where the swords held in the hand seem to be just props that get in the way of the grappling and striking techniques.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts (United States)
    Posts
    187
    Likes (received)
    8

    Default

    In Kung Fu I haven't done grappling with alot of weapons. Mostly barehand against a knife. But grappling techniques are in the weapons forms to analyse and to pull out to experiment and practice against a resisting partner if an individual chooses to. But most of the grappling I do in Kung Fu sparring is barehanded with throws. Locks are harder for me to get on my classmates without them bashing me in the head several times while I'm attempting a lock. Throws are a little easier. There is sparring with staff against staff and wear hockey helmets and hockey gloves but I'm not at the rank to be allowed to train it yet. It's fun watching other people doing it. Grappling is welcomed in that though if you can avoid getting hit several times on the way in.

    In my Iaido class at a different place and with different teacher, there is no sparring.

Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •