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Thread: Grappling

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by chrismoses
    A quick comment, I think the differnce between the examples of the 'grappling' intrinsic to the kendo kata and what is being discussed here is that the kendo kata employs open hand work in order to use a weapon while others here have suggested using a weapon in order to grapple. I agree with Neil G's comments that if you have a weapon, it's absurd to *attempt* to transition to grappling. If you lock up, so be it, but even then your open hand work ideally moves you back into a position where you can again employ your weapon. Just look at older jujutsu/aikijujutsu systems where grappling is used long enough to be able to deploy and use a lethal weapon.
    Thanks for bringing some clarity to what Josh (Althaur) was trying to get across.

    To provide a bit more, when Josh said,

    And just in case I didn't make myself clear, I was advocating ALWAYS closing and doing this sort of thing. My point was that it does have a place.
    I'm pretty sure what he meant to say was, ". . .I was NOT advocating ALWAYS closing and doing this sort of thing." At any rate, that's consistent with what I've taught him over the years.

    As it happens, grappling and throwing -- including using the sword as a tool for the purpose -- is very much a part of some koryu bugei systems. In those of the Bujinkan, four ryuha I can think of immediately where it's a common feature (for different reasons depending on the ryuha) are Kukishinden ryu Happo Biken, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, and Togakure ryu.

    It's a major feature of armored battlefield swordsmanship as exemplified by the first one I mentioned above, as frequently the "ideal" clean cuts you'd do in unarmored dueling are not easy to achieve. Since you still need to kill the opponent, what is often needed is to place the edge or point at an opening or weak spot on the yoroi while taking the opponent's balance and push the cut or thrust through; and often this happens "inside" the range of his own sword. (This also is done with polearms such as yari and naginata as well, often outside the range of his sword.) Joint-locking and/or throwing, using the weapon for leverage, is often a part of the cutting action.

    Takagi Yoshin ryu contains an entire body of material referred to as daisho sabaki, dealing with jujutsu methods used where both combatants are wearing their swords but the "defender" hasn't yet drawn his as he's being attacked (while the attacker may either have already drawn his or be in the act of drawing). The concept behind this is that in such a situation you have, in addition to your taijutsu or body skills, four swords available to you: both of yours and both of his.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

  2. #32
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    Dear Dale:

    Good points all. As long as we are clarifiying I hope noone was thinking that I was advocating ignoring ones' own weapon in order to close with an enemy to grapple. What I wanted to make clear was that grappling as represented in a Mu-Do proceeds from a desperate circumstance. However, Dale, you did raise something I had not thought of.

    Another string (See Charles in "Attn: Mr. Svinth) had spoken to the shift in deportment and execution of technique from all-out bold aggression to reasoned strategies. You mentioned to role of armour, but I have not heard anyone speak to whether there has been a similar shift in approaches to grappling as Japanese traditions moved away from battlefield confrontations and adapted to swordwork as a civil (IE. Self-defense; dueling) activity. The DRAJJ people seem to invoke such developments as a way of characterizing the art they practice. Other than that its like either "the guy had armour and our art proceeds from that", OR "we assume the guy has no armour and our art proceeds from THAT". Does anyone recognize sword related grappling that was modified as the role of the sword changed?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
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  3. #33
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    Thanks, Dale, that clears things up quite a bit.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  4. #34
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    Originally posted by glad2bhere
    Another string (See Charles in "Attn: Mr. Svinth) had spoken to the shift in deportment and execution of technique from all-out bold aggression to reasoned strategies. You mentioned to role of armour, but I have not heard anyone speak to whether there has been a similar shift in approaches to grappling as Japanese traditions moved away from battlefield confrontations and adapted to swordwork as a civil (IE. Self-defense; dueling) activity. The DRAJJ people seem to invoke such developments as a way of characterizing the art they practice. Other than that its like either "the guy had armour and our art proceeds from that", OR "we assume the guy has no armour and our art proceeds from THAT". Does anyone recognize sword related grappling that was modified as the role of the sword changed?
    That's a very thoughtful and interesting question. I'm not competent to address much outside the ryuha of the Bujinkan (which I've trained in for a bit over twenty years now). Based on those, however, I think it probable that those already in existence by the end of the Sengoku Jidai or Warring States era found it unnecessary to either drop anything from their mokuroku or formal curriculum, or to add much, though certainly there would be adaptations where necessary as there always had been. All the stuff that would work with armor would also work without it, while the converse is not necessarily true. . .at least as regards things like sword use and atemi or striking methods. (Strikes and kicks in armored combat would tend to be oriented more toward unbalancing the opponent and/or damaging the joints and degrading or destroying the opponent's mobility, while without armor there are of course a lot more target options for a number of purposes.)

    Grappling is the one thing that wouldn't have had to change significantly, though of course there were adaptations. I remember Hatsumi sensei covering a technique from Takagi Yoshin ryu once, years ago. . .It's what you might call a "transitional" samurai jujutsu system formalized in the 1600s: Still strongly influenced by the Sengoku Jidai but with more of an "indoor" and unarmored than a "battlefield" and armored orientation. Anyhow, Sensei was showing some waza or other involving an unarmed counter against someone attempting a iai- or batto-type sword draw and cut, and he first showed it as an armored technique: "Here's how it was done in the Sengoku Jidai. Then the style of armor changed in the Edo period and it was done like this. . .Without armor it's this way. . .And today, if someone were trying to draw a concealed pistol from a shoulder holster and shoot you, it would be this." But the fundamental concepts behind all the variations were the same.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

  5. #35
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    Originally posted by Dale Seago


    As it happens, grappling and throwing -- including using the sword as a tool for the purpose -- is very much a part of some koryu bugei systems. In those of the Bujinkan, four ryuha I can think of immediately where it's a common feature (for different reasons depending on the ryuha) are Kukishinden ryu Happo Biken, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, and Togakure ryu.

    Just to add to what Dale has written. You can include Takenouchi Ryu in with that. There are some 30 techniques that deal with grappling with the a sword. My favorite so far has a name that translates as "Big Trouble". You get the picture.
    One of the major premises of Takenouchi Ryu is closing the distance with a swordsman and getting up close and sticking it to him, I like to think of Brear Rabbit. Someone wrote earlier this was a stupid idea and will lead to death but I am not so sure on that one. Takenouchi Ryu has some 125-130 kata of kogusoku, they had to have work for someone at some point in time or another.
    Christopher Moon

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    Originally posted by ChrisMoon
    Just to add to what Dale has written. You can include Takenouchi Ryu in with that.
    Are these techniques using a weapon or empty-handed? Cause if empty-handed, this very interesting thread suggests that these techniques, of whatever origin, are mostly hopeful and are better than dying without having tried.
    Last edited by gendzwil; 17th April 2004 at 05:02.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  7. #37
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    Uh, thanks Dale. I didn't even realize I had that typo in there. That's what I get for typing while I am talking. Sorry if that caused confusion folks. Yeah, what he said though.
    Joshua Reis

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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Are these techniques using a weapon or empty-handed? Cause if empty-handed, this very interesting thread suggests that these techniques, of whatever origin, are mostly hopeful and are better than dying without having tried.
    By and large most are with a dagger and leaping in quickly to close the distance.There are some that start out empty handed. One we were working on tonight deals with taking the drawn sword away from the other person and using it on them.
    Christopher Moon

  9. #39
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    Default Bingo!!

    Dear Dale:

    ".....Grappling is the one thing that wouldn't have had to change significantly, though of course there were adaptations. I remember Hatsumi sensei covering a technique from Takagi Yoshin ryu once, years ago. . .It's what you might call a "transitional" samurai jujutsu system formalized in the 1600s: Still strongly influenced by the Sengoku Jidai but with more of an "indoor" and unarmored than a "battlefield" and armored orientation. Anyhow, Sensei was showing some waza or other involving an unarmed counter against someone attempting a iai- or batto-type sword draw and cut, and he first showed it as an armored technique: "Here's how it was done in the Sengoku Jidai. Then the style of armor changed in the Edo period and it was done like this. . .Without armor it's this way. . .And today, if someone were trying to draw a concealed pistol from a shoulder holster and shoot you, it would be this." But the fundamental concepts behind all the variations were the same......"

    You hit it squarely on the head! Thanks very much. I had hoped that the discussion might move in this direction. I was not even sure that people still incoporated grappling into sword practice, and I know there are always oral traditions that relate sword and grappling. However, the evolution of the grappling techniques relative to the evolution of sword practice seems to remain in some nebulous grey area most of the time. Without being disrespectful to the Kendo folks, I would hope that some of them might begin to nose around in their background traditions. I am not talking so much about for competition purposes but more so that those traditions need not pass away from being ignored. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Are these techniques using a weapon or empty-handed? Cause if empty-handed, this very interesting thread suggests that these techniques, of whatever origin, are mostly hopeful and are better than dying without having tried.
    Whew!!! Finally got through the thread. And y'know what? I don't have a problem at all with the views being expressed by Nathan Scott, Ellis Amdur, Dan Harden, et al.

    Weapons do give one an advantage. That's precisely why "the bad guys" use them, and why we train to use them ourselves. If you're unarmed and facing someone with a polearm, or a drawn sword/knife/pistol/whatever, there's no question that you're already "behind the power curve" as you start out.

    That being said, however, I think there are a couple of good reasons for this kind of training and why it's been retained and should be practiced today.

    One is that you might get lucky and not end up dead or incapacitated on the first go, and if that should happen it's good to have some idea what you can do from that point to regain the initiative.

    Another stems from something I remember Hatsumi sensei saying back in '95, when we were focusing largely on naginata in the training, to the effect that you can't fully "master" (or understand/incorporate the full potential of) taijutsu until you've become proficient with weapons. There is nothing like learning a variety of weapons to give you a keen sense of distance, positioning, timing, precision, deception, and "manipulation of the interactive space", and this does in my experience have a profound effect on your taijutsu.

    Weapons skill and taijutsu complement and reinforce each other. I also remember Sensei saying on the same occasion I mentioned above (getting back to the original issue of grappling) that the naginata can be looked at as a "composite" weapon having characteristics -- depending on range and manner of use -- of a yari, rokushakubo, jo, katana, kodachi, etc. It's a cutting tool, a thrusting tool, an impact tool, a shield, a grappling/locking/throwing tool, etc. And that if one only "thinks of the naginata as a naginata" and uses it solely in that way (or is fixed on the idea of "using the sword as a sword"), one may be defeated by someone who really understands the complementarity of weapons and taijutsu.
    Last edited by Dale Seago; 17th April 2004 at 19:50.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

  11. #41
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    Dear Dale et al:

    Good points all. Sometimes I get the feeling that folks who start with emptyhand techniques and graduate to weapons have a better appreciation of range and combat distance than the other way around. I wonder if folks who might do it the other way around have experienced any special difficulties. I think a case could be made for a swordsman becoming overly dependent on his weapon of choice and becoming overwhelmed when suddenly without and/or faced with a person who still has theirs. Somebody mentioned earlier about taking zanshin from his partner in this way. On the otherhand a person who begins without a weapon would seem to be at home (???) without the weapon and might reasonable experience having a weapon as a fortunate imperfection of fate, yes? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
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  12. #42
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    Bruce,

    I don't know if going at it either way gives any advantage or disadvantage. The better your taijutsu, the better your weapon skills should be. However, the things that you can be a little sloppy with unarmed, use strength or such, take on a new light with weapons. Kind of hard to muscle your way through it. I know that all of my screw ups shine like a beacon when I have a weapon in my hand. Dale had us working on all of this together, unarmed against a sword, sword against sword, etc. You start to feel differences in timing and distance and can find similarities between them also. Shouldn't be much different unarmed or armed, however, the truth of the matter for most of us is there will be for a while.

    Once again, Dale said it better than I could ever hope to in regards to using a weapon. Don't get hung up on how it's "supposed" to be used. To add to the example that Dale gave with the naginata, look at a soldiers weapons today. The M16 is for shooting the bad guys. We also learn how to use it like a spear with a bayonet, we will use it like a hanbo for striking, you can tie someone up with it for grappling and throws(watch were you point the barrel).


    Josh Reis
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  13. #43
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    In a perfect world, swordfights never degenerate into close-range, desperate grappling, because technique is perfect and people all obey the "rules".

    In the real world, I can very easily see a lot of grabs, shoves, body-slams, foot-sweeps, pommel-punches, guard strikes, disarms, and brutal close-range cuts. Simply put, fighting is nasty, fast, and chaotic as hell, and such techniques are needed to cover every eventuality. Seeing as how Musashi devotes quite a bit of time in his Book of Five Rings to such techniques (he explicitly mentions body slams and probably others in passing - I need to reread it again), I don't think that I'm very far off the mark here. After all, if you're physically close enough to crash into someone with your shoulder, you're close enough to grapple with them and run with it from there.

  14. #44
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    Welcome to e-budo, Tyler!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Did Musashi ever actually use the "body strike" in a dual?

    If so, then where is it recorded?

    Just because he wrote it in the Go Rin No Sho is no reason to treat it as "according to Hoyle fact."

    I think that grapping in a sword (or any weapon fight) is more a situation of opportunity rather than a planned tactic.

    Not saying it does/didn't happen--just saying its unlikely thats its planned.

    Chris Thomas

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