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Thread: Grappling

  1. #76
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    Dear Christian:

    While I might not completely stop a person this way, would you agree that it would serve as an "atemi" of sorts preparatory to executing some other technique? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  2. #77
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    Lemme get up in this fo a sec...

    Originally posted by cxt
    Did Musashi ever actually use the "body strike" in a dual?

    If so, then where is it recorded?

    Did Doug take a crap this morning?

    Well, I remember doing it.

    But, alas, I didnt record it so it must be assumed that I have to take a wicked crap now. In fact... I have never recorded a crap! I must have a monster brewed up by now. I better record one before I explode.

    Kind of thin logic, ne.

    How bout - " There is a rumor that Doug took a crap this morning."

    Originally posted by glad2bhere
    How about that famous exchange with the jo master... I have often wondered how a person with a stick would have bested a swordsman and made the win clear.
    I have heard that it is only written about at the Kashima Jinja.

    Ahhh... the beauty of jodo, you never would think it and then... whack- You catch a monkey stick beating.

    I know the story but dont feel like typing it up. Search on kaeshizuke or better yet...

    http://www.newbudo.com/jodo.htm

    That has a fair summary of events.

    Originally posted by cxt

    My point is that you can't possibly draw ANY kind of conclusion from what he wrote.
    Except that a master swordsman, in a letter to his student, advised using a certian technique.

    That carries some BIG weight in my book.
    Originally posted by cxt

    After all they preserved the fact he carved a "boat oar" into a bokken. Why would they not notice a guy getting killed in such a unuusal manner???
    They preserved the oar so of course they have the story too.

    No one recorded anything unusual or no. I would imagine a 6ft tall stinking messy red headed swordsman killing someone is unusual enough. (hey... one of us resembles that remark)

    As far as grappling goes, if I locked up in tsuba zarai no rules, I think I could jerk a knot in someones tail.

    (You know this amounts to a challenge to drunken no rules kendo to the death at midnight with Neil M)

    The rest is just geeky mental masturbation, I'ma go work out,

    But first, I gotta GO
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  3. #78
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    Wink

    Doug

    Hmmmmm? (smokeing pipe, looking thoughtful and saying in my best German accent--which to be honest sucks)

    "Refering to yourself in the 3td person--as in "did Doug take a crap this morning?"

    "No longer having a sense of shame or decorum concerning "bathroom" activities."

    "Subject seems to exhibit some signs of mental unbalance."

    (yes I am kidding)

    But all kidding aside, huge effective difference between a normal biologicial function and a tactic used during a fight with live blades.

    I am willing to accept that you actually crap--even though you didn't record it.

    Not willing to extend the same level of trust in a fight for my life.

    Hey, you trust it?? You seem to, why don't you try it with someone that has no problem cracking your skull--then let us know how it goes.

    "A master swordsmen...in a letter to his student advised using a certain technique....carries big weight with me."

    Wow, that settles it, I mean Mushashi himself seems never to have used it, none of his period student seem to have used it, there seems to be no record of ANY of his students using it--over what a couple of 100 years. (that I am aware of--be happy to be wrong here)
    No stories of anyone, anywhere of ANY ryu using the "body strike"

    But the actions of actual fighters--you know guys that actually fought for their lives-- don't count, not when we have Doug to tell us that "that carries big weight."

    And as long as we are on that topic, you said:

    "If I locked up in tsuba zarai no rules I think I could I jerk a knot in someones tail."

    A-Means you have never tried, your just "thinking" so you really don't know do you?

    B-Of course you could, makes perfect sense, you have never actually done it, but sitting around talking seems like you could.

    C- And of course the guy your fighting/sparring is not goign to try any counter--heck how do you know he won't try it first?
    Sorry, thats right were just kinda "supposing" arn't we??

    Sorry man you just joined the "geeky mental mastubation" circle-jerk a couple of us are already doing.

    Like to welcome you aboard with a hearty handshake--but given the circumstances--that would seem kinda "icky" to me.

    Chris Thomas
    Last edited by cxt; 22nd April 2004 at 20:05.

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    Originally posted by glad2bhere
    Dear Christian:

    While I might not completely stop a person this way, would you agree that it would serve as an "atemi" of sorts preparatory to executing some other technique? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    In the immortal words of Mr. Waturi from Joe vs the Volcano "I'm not arguing that with you..."

    Of course this could serve as a preparatory move/technique, most likely killing them with the sword as they struggled to regain their balance. Assuming because this kind of thing *could* move into grappling is, in my mind, a huge leap from the text. I think this is where Neil was going very early on in this thing with the comment that we were nearing the realm of fantasy/anime/chambara with this line of thinking. Why on earth would anyone close in close enough to deliver this kind of a body blow and then not follow it up with the weapon that is in your hands? Besides, to reiterate one of my key points in all of this, atemi does not equate in my mind with grappling. I see this simply as an extention of a very agressive combat strategy that involves closing the maai beyond the comfort zone of most practitioners. To me, that keeps it wholly within the realm of kenjutsu and not any kind of grappling.

    I believe it was Yagyu Jubei (I know it was one of the Yagyu's, can't find the reference right now) who disarmed an attacker while demonstrating for the Shogun and was promptly made the Shogun's personal teacher. If the concept of grappling in the midst of a sword fight was as common/possible as many people in this thread seem to think it, why would such a feat have elicited such a response from the Shogun? I take this as evidence that this kind of thing was a) best left for demonstrations and not actual duels and b) rare enough that it was most likely the realm of a *very* few extrememly good practitioners.
    Last edited by chrismoses; 22nd April 2004 at 20:34.
    Christian Moses
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  5. #80
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    Dear Christian:

    "....Why on earth would anyone close in close enough to deliver this kind of a body blow and then not follow it up with the weapon that is in your hands? Besides, to reiterate one of my key points in all of this, atemi does not equate in my mind with grappling...."

    Ironicly I bring this up because I had the very same thought. For the life of me I can't think of a reason why someone would engineer sucha situation. However, I did have a thought about Musashis' tendency to take his sword into the bathouse with him in anticipation of ambush. What I am thinking is that were a person to ambush another the defender would already find themselves within the kill zone. The human response would be to either freeze or back-up. A sudden pitch forward with drive off the back foot would be relatively unexpected. Now, I'm not saying that my 5-7 frame is going kill anyone, but were the attacker expecting to exploit me backing up, maybe the alternative would give me some advantage.Perhaps this is what Musashi was alluding to? Other than that I can't imagine another scenerio other than finding oneself entangled in a clinch. Thoughts?

    BTW: For myself personally I probably wouldn't think "shoulder" as much as I'm thinking "elbow" or "knee". FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  6. #81
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    Why on earth would anyone close in close enough to deliver this kind of a body blow and then not follow it up with the weapon that is in your hands?
    Plenty of reasons. Your opponent might have a strong center and not get knocked back much. Your own weapon might be bound up off to the side or overhead. Maybe you don't want to kill them. Perhaps you're having a swordfight in a very tight space and don't have room to maneuver. It could be to surprise them with two unconventional tactics in a row.

    The point isn't that it would always be the smartest thing to body-check in and then grapple. The point is that you COULD do it from that position. Someone is just as dead if you cut their throat with your tanto in a grapple as if you crack their skull open with your katana from perfect range. It seems to me like there are a few things you could do if you started grappling to keep them from using their sword if you close to that range, leaving you free to do whatever.

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    X-San


    You might want to go back a page and at least try and respond to my last series of direct posts to you.

    Unless of course your ready to give it up???

    You "could" also spit in his eye, you "could" also lever his sword down and head butt a guy, you "could" throw your sword right into his chest, you "could" let go with one hand and grap his top knot, you "could" drop your blade and try a flying tackle, you "could" drop your blade and smack your palms togather trapping his sword--just like in the movies, you "could" use your hypnotic powers (samanjutsu??) or you "could" use your illusion powers (genjutsu) to trick him then stab him, you "could" tie up his blade then (real fast like) grab his lapels then throw him, you "could" lure him into a place with a really low roof.

    You "could" do all sorts of things--just most of them would really not be smart, advisable, or backed up by how things seem to have been "really" done.

    You "COULD" do any number of things--and as long as we are playing "lets make things up"

    You "could" just shoot the SOB.


    Chris Thomas

  8. #83
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    Since we're playing make believe...

    "Plenty of reasons. Your opponent might have a strong center and not get knocked back much."

    Then you my friend would already be dead.

    "Your own weapon might be bound up off to the side or overhead."

    Then you my friend would already be dead.

    "Maybe you don't want to kill them."

    Too late for that, you both have swords out, either one or both of you is going out.

    "Perhaps you're having a swordfight in a very tight space and don't have room to maneuver."

    Well then it would have been pretty dumb of me to draw a katana, probably should have started with tanto or grappling. I believe your ryu-ha actually has a kata based around this particular eventuality though.

    "It could be to surprise them with two unconventional tactics in a row."

    Ichi-go ichi-e. See responses to 1 and 2.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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  9. #84
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    First let me correct myself- it was the Tsukuba jinja
    Originally posted by cxt

    "Subject seems to exhibit some signs of mental unbalance."
    You bet, who else would take pleasure in the groans and gagging sounds made by choking a snot bubble out of someone.
    Originally posted by cxt
    But all kidding aside, huge effective difference between a normal biologicial function and a tactic used during a fight with live blades.
    It is the same backward logic even if you change the circumstances.
    Originally posted by cxt
    I am willing to accept that you actually crap--even though you didn't record it.
    Well I'm touched. I was fully prepared to send you a sample if needed.
    Originally posted by cxt
    Not willing to extend the same level of trust in a fight for my life.
    What fight for your life? How often do you fight to the death with swords? There is no fight for your life here, you are not in such peril that you cant take a comment on faith for fear it may fail, come off of it.

    You are arguing about history knowing that no one around here can prove you wrong. (retarded but- Hey, whatever gets you going in the morning)
    The other fellows are giving you just what you want- an argument where you are sure your victory. (retarded but... nahh just retarded)
    Originally posted by cxt
    Hey, you trust it?? You seem to, why don't you try it with someone that has no problem cracking your skull--then let us know how it goes.
    I will!! It is already on, first available opportunity. Neil, do you have any problem whacking me in the skull?

    But that knowledge is not free - $100 and I will tell you what happens. Other than that- learn on your own.
    Originally posted by cxt
    I mean Mushashi himself seems never to have used it, none of his period student seem to have used it, there seems to be no record of ANY of his students using it--over what a couple of 100 years. (that I am aware of--be happy to be wrong here)
    No stories of anyone, anywhere of ANY ryu using the "body strike"
    WHAT!! Speaka ingles? Where do you make that leap in logic.

    M-U-S-A-S-H-I advised using it. Period. The rest is conjecture.

    By the way, you do understand that there are a bunch of people who do his art, some have family documents that are not avalable to you and dont speak much english and wouldnt care what you believe either. Books not written in english etc... You know- beyond your reach. Outside your reach does not mean non existent.

    Are you a historian? Can you read Japanese? Do you have access to secret documents? How then can you take the position that something did or did not happen (BTW this is your downfall). The best you could do is say you dont believe what was written.

    If you doubt this portion of his book why not doubt the whole thing? You can, it is ok.

    I personally choose to believe it.

    No one can shove it down your throat without presenting proof but it makes you seem rather silly and naive.
    Originally posted by cxt
    But the actions of actual fighters--you know guys that actually fought for their lives-- don't count, not when we have Doug to tell us that "that carries big weight."
    How old are ya son? Do ya actually do any martial arts? What? How long? Where? Who is your teacher?
    I will use my psychic powers and see how close I get.

    You are 19, you have been training ~6mos in karate at a mc dojo. You dont make good grades in english.

    Tell us about yourself, you are showing us the car lets see if you can drive it.

    This dog is too old and wise to be baited. But I do realize that it is easy to be more offensive than you intend on the internet.
    Originally posted by cxt
    "If I locked up in tsuba zarai no rules I think I could I jerk a knot in someones tail."

    A-Means you have never tried, your just "thinking" so you really don't know do you?

    B-Of course you could, makes perfect sense, you have never actually done it, but sitting around talking seems like you could.
    Never tried, it never came up, but I will. At a certian "ma" (look that word up) I am hell on wheels grappling. If I hit that maai...
    Originally posted by cxt
    C- And of course the guy your fighting/sparring is not goign to try any counter--heck how do you know he won't try it first?
    Sorry, thats right were just kinda "supposing" arn't we??
    Neil you arent going to try and counter me, are you? Of courrrrrrrrrse you wouldnt, that would be naughty.

    I am speechless, I am just shaking my head. Retard. You have never been to a "real" dojo, have you?

    Originally posted by cxt
    Sorry man you just joined the "geeky mental mastubation" circle-jerk a couple of us are already doing.
    Not me, I'm just a meat head knuckledragger on training downtime. I leave arguing about issues of no importance and one-upsmanship to the `net nerds who have never actually touched a woman "down there" and wanna be tough guys.

    BTW- dont let me sound too irritated, I'm always kind of blunt, no particular offence intended. Any intended offence would be in no uncertian terms, so relax.
    Last edited by Douglas Wylie; 23rd April 2004 at 03:43.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Dear Douglas:

    "....Never tried, it never came up, but I will. At a certian "ma" (look that word up) I am hell on wheels grappling. If I hit that maai... ...."

    We seem to have come full circle as this is where I started the string in the first place. If I may, I would like to use your post to spring back into the original contant and I mean no criticism as I say this.

    You mention that you "never tried, it never came up..." and I am wondering what sort of atmosphere you train in that produced this? Is it possible to experiment in this fashion? Are you restricted by policy not to? I, for one, would be very interested to hear what your particular school, ryu, teacher have to say on this subject.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Doug


    This is what I seriously don't get.

    Your whole line of reason boils down to a single line a famous swordmaster wrote about a technique that no-one, including the master himself EVER seems to have used.

    None of his students seem to have used it. The technique seems to have not been used by other ryu.

    And in what, maybe 400 years of war, duels and various killings. There seems to be no record of anyone, anywhere, at anytime, using anything that even resembles the "body strike."

    Yet you and X-San get your panties---

    (benefit of the doubt here that I don't "really" think you guys actually wear ladies undergarments--but there is NOTHING wrong with it if you do--don't change just to fit in--be yourself!!!)

    --all in twist when I question the validity of a specific technique.

    You seem to feel your an educated guy--seem to consider yourself somewhat "in the know."

    Lets do a quick test of your logic skills.

    I'll give you the same thing I asked X-San:


    I want you to put your life savings in this investment plan.

    Does it work?

    Well it was written by up by Bill Gates--you know how smart and rich he is

    Did Bill Gates use this plan??

    Well, we don't really know, we think he might have--but he never said.

    Did anyone of Bills co-workers or interns use the plan?

    Not that we know of. But the plan works, Bill says so!

    Does anyone else rich and famous use it?

    Well, no, not that we know of, but its a good plan--Bill wrote it down!!

    Do you use the plan yourself? If so are you rich??

    Well, no I don't and have not used it myself--but it must be good Bill is rich and he wrote it up!!

    So Bill used the plan to GET rich??

    Well no, I mean he wrote it long after he was already rich--but it must be good Bill wrote it!

    Okay, so you must know of SOMEONE who has used it??

    Well, no--but it MUST BE GOOD--BILL GATES WROTE IT!!!

    Okay, let me get this stright (this is for the slow on the uptake folks--such as yourself Doug)
    You want me to give you my life savings to invest in a plan that nobody has ever used, nobody has ever made any money from, that you yourself don't use.
    But its a "good plan" due to Bill Gates being the author??

    Is that pretty much it??

    Sorry Charlie, maybe your not as smart as you seem to think you are. Just maybe?

    Hey, Doug if you "really" are sharp enough to buy this kinda logic--I have some really good swamp--FARM I mean FARM, yes FARM-land I say!! I can sell you at a great price.

    Let me know OK??

    Just a bit of fun Doug--don't get all bent out of shape.


    Chris Thomas

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    Doug and X-San

    Should not let you off the hook here-actually enjoy knocking you about--but I do wish you would try a little harder.

    BUT

    See, the problem here is a failure of logic.

    You and X-San claim that the mere fact a line in a book exsists--that it equals positive, "according to Hoyle" "take it to the bank" proof.

    Basically because the author is famous or infamous depending on your point of view.

    I disagree that meets any standard of rational proof.

    Rather than admit that its not--you guys keep trying to argue that "IT IS SO PROOF"--stamping your feet, pouting and shaking your cute litte fists in the air.

    See, thats not proof either.

    Logically you can't prove a negitive--I can't prove that the technique did/does not exsist.

    Nor am I trying to.

    All I'm pointing out is that there are some pretty good reasons to take that particular passage with a grain of salt.

    Something that you seem unprepared to do.

    Your all bent out of shape becuase I am unwilling to take YOUR word for it.

    I am unwilling to take the passage itself at face value--might be more accurate to say I have learned over the years that it is almost never a good to blindly accept ANYTHING you are told or read--think its always a good idea to think things thu--for yourself.

    But you guys seem all hell bent trying to prove something that you simply can't do--the proof does not exsist.

    Honestly be happy to be wrong here.

    But you really should just give it up already.



    Chris Thomas

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    Originally posted by glad2bhere


    You mention that you "never tried, it never came up..." and I am wondering what sort of atmosphere you train in that produced this?
    A Japanese one. I dont expect you to understand and I am not your teacher.
    Originally posted by glad2bhere

    Is it possible to experiment in this fashion?
    outside of class you are free to do as you wish.

    Originally posted by glad2bhere
    Are you restricted by policy not to?
    In class, yes.
    Originally posted by glad2bhere


    I, for one, would be very interested to hear what your particular school, ryu, teacher have to say on this subject.

    "Thats not how it is done"
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Originally posted by cxt


    Should not let you off the hook here-actually enjoy knocking you about--but I do wish you would try a little harder.

    Troll.

    If you WOULD like to knock me around I can give you my address. Otherwise we are done.

    Obnoxious child.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    Originally posted by cxt
    Doug


    This is what I seriously don't get.

    Your whole line of reason boils down to a single line a famous swordmaster wrote about a technique that no-one, including the master himself EVER seems to have used.
    Ok, Chris, everybody who has ever practiced kendo with bogu on has used a body strike. That's one way tsubazerai happens--both exponents going in for say a men cut and collide into one another. We are taught from the get go that the movement comes from your hara and you should be prepared to collide with the opponent at any time.

    Now, I am not for 100% sure this is what Musashi meant, but I very seriously doubt that kendo just somehow randomly developed this. In fact, I think body strikes were so pervasive in sword training they didn't need talking about.

    Note: I do not have 100% conclusive proof that this is so. I do not have historical records that indicate otherwise. What I do have is continous practice in this in kendo and a rational brain that can draw the other three corners from one.
    --Neil Melancon--

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