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Thread: Does Shorinji kempo contain.....

  1. #1
    Bungle Guest

    Default Does Shorinji kempo contain.....

    qi gong? I've been lead to believe from TCMA that qi gong is integral to shaolin martial arts. Known as the three treasures of shaolin: 1. Cha'n/zen philosophy
    2. Qi Gong practice
    3. Martial science
    I know shorinji has 1 and 3 but 2?

    The thread on what makes a cma shaolin is below:

    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...5&pagenumber=2

    Thanks

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    Andy, the basic answer is yes. Chinkon would be the Japanese reading (unless someone corrects me).
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Or maybe the basic answer is NO......

    qi gong is understood to be the practice of breaking things on various parts of your anatomy/being able to withstand intense pressure to certain parts of your anatomy/pulling trucks with certain parts of your anatomy..........

    By this definition then Shorinji Kempo has no connection to qi gong.

    If however you mean breathing control and associated practice then yes we do.



    Is that a roundabout enough answer?
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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    The thread referred to in the original post is massive, and fascinating. It would be worthy of any of the scholars on here

    I think the key to understanding the title of our art is the lineage claim of Doshin So, plus the inspiration to form an art that contains the essence of the training that happened at Shaolin. This all began at a time when there was NO martial training at the Shaolin Temple any more. Things have looked up for the authentic study of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts (TCMA) in recent years, as PROC comes out from the clouds of dust kicked up by Mao's Cultural Revolution and the subsequent re-introduction of the capitalist dream.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  5. #5
    Bungle Guest

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    Qi gong involves breathing, movement and visualization in order to gain control of the energy system flowing through the meridian system and build up energy within the many storage points in the body. The by product could be harder skin and stronger and more forceful attacks. There are different types of qi gong and kung fu.

    The most elaborate system of qi gong associated with shaolin kung fu is www.wahnam.com.

    I just realised that it kinda seems like i'm trying to invalidate shorinji. Sorry i'm not trying to hurt anyones feelings. There could be numerous reasons why shorinji contains no qi gong. For one, the style of shaolin Doshin studied may of been a hard external style which involved only physical conditioning.

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    No problem there Andy. I think one of our problems is a lack of knowledge of the appropriate jargon to understand/answer your questions. We know all sorts of Japanese phrases, names and concepts that are used in the teaching of Shorinji Kempo. Many of these will have their origins in the Chinese language, while others are peculiar to Japanese.

    Have you seen the WSKO website. There are various articles and descriptions on there that give a flavour of what we do. You'll find that Zazen meditation, accupressure massage and philosophy lectures are all used as part of the regular training alongside a system of self-defence made up of hard (punches, kicks, blocks) and soft (releases, throws, locks).

    As someone on the Kung Fu Magazine site said, Shorinji Kempo is like Doshin So's homage to the Shaolin Temple. If you see a class, it looks, sounds and feels Japanese. Japanese people might not think so, as it has obvious differences to their own Budo, like Jujutsu or Karatedo. The costume, language and Dojo etiquette look and feel more like a Karate class than any Kung Fu school I've seen (not many, it has to be said ).
    Last edited by Tripitaka of AA; 16th April 2004 at 00:36.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Default Shorinji Kempo and Qi Gong

    Andy,

    Great question. First off, I am not formally a student of Qi Gong, but I do have some experience with it as I am currently studying Oriental Medicine in the United States.

    Part of the problem with answering your question is that Qi-Gong is at least a couple of thousand years old and probably has almost as many variations and branches. Types of Qi-gong range from completely motionless to completely kinesthetic types and from purely medical forms to martial arts varieties. I have spent some time talking with colleagues that study different types.

    The unifying factor among all forms of Qi-gong is the use of breath to harness or move the QI. How, where and why this is done will depend on the type of the qi-gong you are doing.

    The three benefits of Shorinji Kempo are self defense, mental health and physical health. We teach students to use a very specific breathing pattern which takes 25 to 30 seconds to complete each cycle. When done with the proper posture, mental state and breathing pattern the mind calms and clears, the Qi moves correctly and gathers in the areas necessary to defend yourself. After comparing Shorinji Kempo's breathing exercises with others who formally practice different types of qi-gong, I don't have a problem telling people that an element of Shorinji Kempo includes a qi-gong aspect to it. Whether or not it is formally qi-gong or not is really not as important to me, since it seems to me to provide a functionally many of the same benefits, specifically tailored for the three goals of our art.

    You made mention to the Chinese obsession of separating martial arts into internal (yin) styles and external (yang) styles. One hallmark of Shorinji Kempo is that it is neither purely an internal or external form. But rather we teach both, separately at first, and over time students learn how to integrate the hard and the soft.

    The website you linked also equates "internal" aspects of an art with zen. In this context, Shorinji Kempo is very internal as we see Shorinji Kempo as the physical method of training to learn a philosophy that Do Shin So called Kongo Zen. I know that this may sound circular, but the method of teaching self defense is through zen practice rather than simply to memorize a buch of blocks and kicks.

    Needless to say there is much more that we could talk about, but I wonder how many people read the really long posts anyway. 8 ^ )

    Thanks again for the nice question.
    Last edited by dtoone; 16th April 2004 at 07:15.
    David Toone
    World Shorinji Kempo Emeryville Branch
    Emeryville, California, USA

  8. #8
    Bungle Guest

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    That's fine. We're all drawn to different arts as is our karma. I like the look of shorinji and i get a good vibe from it; shame they don't do it in my area.

    If any of you felt the need you could always learn qi gong as a seperate system. Qi gong is traditional quite a advanced practice too i think. The highest and most powerful techniques were developed purely through forms of qi gong. It could be that Doshin thought to create a style of more mainstream appeal to benefit humanity and knew sacrifices may have to be made. Shornji kempo still looks the business.

    I have noticed actually that the Japanese as a whole seem to neglect in depth energy training. Even in aikido they seem to focus on adominal breathing as the principal method by itself. I think aikido may of been meant to contain the energy system within the fighting patterns. Like tai chi. Maybe there is some of that in Shorinji.

    Thanks for the answers.

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    Default Re: Does Shorinji kempo contain.....

    Originally posted by Bungle
    ...I've been lead to believe from TCMA that qi gong is integral to shaolin martial arts...
    Dear Bungle

    Like Steve; I don't think that Shorinji Kempo has Qi Gong within it as a fundemental, but I also don't believe that Shorinji Kempo is a Shaolin Martial art.

    I did observe that your initial post involved an element of challenge but am pleased with the way it's progressed.
    I take it, from your subsequent tone, that you are genuine.

    I have studied several forms of Kung Fu and I have had long discussions into the small hours with a good friend who practices the internal arts every single day.
    We have gone round and round this topic, his understanding and mine.
    I have also watched all of the video clips from the link, repeatedly.

    If we are to surmise that Qi Gong, in some way, involves the use of controlled breathing as a method to maintain, or amplify energy levels, then I would be forced to submit that the very best example of this demonstrated is the way Shorinji Kempo practitioners are forced to breathe during embu.
    In a sequence of full speed and energy punches, kicks, blocks, locks and throws onto a wooden floor, lasting between 180 and 240 seconds the partners constrain themselves to a set breathing regime.

    With myself and my embu partner, Ian, in Japan in 1997 I allowed myself 41 breaths.

    Whilst this is a discipline taught within Shorinji Kempo it is not exclusive.

    When I used to swim for Yorkshire, at U13 years of age, in the medley relay 4 x 100m my coach, Mr Durrant, would only allow me to breathe once every 6 over-arm strokes during the freestyle leg, no matter how f*cked I was.

    He "led me to believe" that I would be faster that way.
    All coaches teach differently, they can't all be right, but as long as they are genuine in their teachings there's no harm in it, (unless you drown!)

    Enjoy your training.

    Ade
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  10. #10
    shugyosha Guest

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    Bodhidarma wrote two books, treating only about qigong.

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    Originally posted by shugyosha
    Bodhidarma wrote two books, treating only about qigong.
    Gassho Jimi,

    Do you mean that Daruma spent a lot of time talking about Qi-gong, or very little?


    Thanks in advance for the clarification.
    David Toone
    World Shorinji Kempo Emeryville Branch
    Emeryville, California, USA

  12. #12
    shugyosha Guest

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    Do you mean that Daruma spent a lot of time talking about Qi-gong, or very little?
    Daruma came from india to visit budhist temple in china, from that he created chan budhism (zen) wich means meditation, qigong is the base of meditation.
    he's said to have spent years in meditation retreat before to come up with exercises to improve the monks health.
    normal exerices were design to improve qi and blood circulation, advanced, to strainghten the bones.

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    I think that part of the issue is agreeing on what one considers Qi-gong. There are many different forms, and what one considers Qi-gong would not be considered Q-gong to another person. What it sounds like Andy is talking about is using meditation and breathing to identify, trace, and ultimately guide one's Qi (Ki) through the meridians.

    One observation about Shorinji Kempo compared to something like Tai-ji, which is considered a martial form of Qi-gong, is the order that different things are taught and learned.

    For instance, in SK self defense is stressed at first, while in Tai-ji self defense comes later, almost as a by product of dedicated practice. Anyone who dismisses Tai-ji as an effective method of self defense isn't paying enough attention to the "hard" that develops within the "soft". Likewise, people often don't understand or look hard enough to see the health benifits of SK. They see only a bunch of punches and kicks. I would argue that these poeple don't see the "soft" that develops within the "hard." I believe practice of SK can lead a person to the same health benifits as a person practicing Tai-ji or other forms of Qi-gong -- again, there are hundreds of varieties. But one must, just like in Tai-ji, be very serious about doing Chinkon-gyo correctly and regularly. If I am not mistaken, I remember reading that Kaiso's original format included 30 minutes of zazen two hours of Kempo practice and another 30 minutes of zazen.

    Much of the difference in orientation to health comes from the social, culteral and religious origens of the respective systems. Shorinji Kempo has a very buddhist bent, while Tai-ji is Taoist. Likewise, the Qi-gong that Andy is inquiring about sounds very Taoist in orientation. So does Shorinji Kempo involve Qi-gong, sensu strictu? No, since its orientation is not Taoist, and therefore it won't follow a Taoist methodology. Does it contain qi-gong, sensu latu? Yes, in that the aim of promoting health and well being is the same as in Qi-gong. Like Andy suggested, its not about what is right or wrong, or better or worse, rather about what path you are drawn to.

    Andy, all that now said, you should definately find the closest Shorinji Kempo dojo and give it a couple months practice and see if you like it.
    David Toone
    World Shorinji Kempo Emeryville Branch
    Emeryville, California, USA

  14. #14
    Bungle Guest

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    Thanks again for the replies. I would definately like to give it a go. I'm not in a stable situation yet. I might see what i can do when i sort myself out.

    I read somewhere that shorinji kempo stems from an early derivation of shaolin kung fu. Before it fully evolved in its golden age. Thus mostly punches and palm strikes are utilised. Where as the further evolved methods use tiger claw, eagle claw, lepoard etc etc. Also many types of force conditioning. Do you do force conditioning? That would count as qi gong. So i can see why shorinji would be different.

    I don't want start an argument but something has just occured to me. The fundamental method of self development brought by bodhidharma was 18 hands lohan and sinew metamorphosis. You might expect them to be within the system since they are the first forms of qi gong taught.

    I can think of two reason why they might not be. Firstly, the shaolin kung fu taught to Doshin So could dropped the qi gong elements in favour of maintaing a quick, practical and hard style. I'm not sure if they sinew metamorphosis and 18 hands lohan are fundamental to shaolin kung fu practice. As pointed out eariler. It might be possible that these elements were combined within the combative forms. Lastly, it is possible Doshin So retained these methods for only his inner disciples.

    I dunno...

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    Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
    No problem there Andy. I think one of our problems is a lack of knowledge of the appropriate jargon to understand/answer your questions. We know all sorts of Japanese phrases, names and concepts that are used in the teaching of Shorinji Kempo. Many of these will have their origins in the Chinese language, while others are peculiar to Japanese.

    Have you seen the WSKO website. There are various articles and descriptions on there that give a flavour of what we do. You'll find that Zazen meditation, accupressure massage and philosophy lectures are all used as part of the regular training alongside a system of self-defence made up of hard (punches, kicks, blocks) and soft (releases, throws, locks).

    As someone on the Kung Fu Magazine site said, Shorinji Kempo is like Doshin So's homage to the Shaolin Temple. If you see a class, it looks, sounds and feels Japanese. Japanese people might not think so, as it has obvious differences to their own Budo, like Jujutsu or Karatedo. The costume, language and Dojo etiquette look and feel more like a Karate class than any Kung Fu school I've seen (not many, it has to be said ).
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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