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Thread: Iraq

  1. #61
    wab25 Guest

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    I would definitely love to see your examples when you get them.

    ===================
    Also, bear in mind, I am pro-USA, and proud of the good things that our country does and stands for. I just don't want to look the other way when we screw things up at home or behave badly in the world.
    ===================

    Thats what I got from your posts. Its just we dissagree on what behaving badly in the world is. I think that in general, it depends on what or who you compare us to. If you compare us to our theoretical ideal, then yes we are doing badly. But here, you must remember that we allow ourselves to change and to become better. Which other country promotes this? If you compare our actions to pre 9-11 peace time, again, we are doing pretty bad. But if you compare what we are doing to what other countries do in war, then we are doing fairly well. What little rights our POWs have are far more than the rights our soldiers have faced upon being captive. Heck, the POWs we have in Iraq have more rights than they did under Saddam, before we came. ( except for the authorities who no longer have the right rape, torture and kill when they see fit. sort of ruins the whole prison like atmosphere ) Look at how far we have come in terms of civilian casualties. Yes they do happen, but we have become far more surgical than the carpet bombing runs used in the past. And at least we target military points, not whole cities. ( mistakes happen, but give credit for the effort made to limit them ) Most countries go to war and keep what they conquer. We are trying to help them set up a government as they choose.

    The truth is that war is hell. I forget who said that, but it is very true. We as a country do not have the stomach for it. The media is making millions on our shock at what war looks like. The result is that politics come into play, in how we respond, which has at every turn cost more lives, than a quick and powerful crushing of the opposition. It happened in Korea, we could have easily won that, with far fewer casualties on both sides if there weren't any political concerns which led to rules. Same goes for Vietnam. Ever talked to a pilot who had to fly over enemy supply dumps they weren't allowed to bomb for political reasons, only to bomb an empty hill and lose their wingman? Here again we are doing the same thing. In fact, it is very easy to beat the US in war, and Saddam almost did win. Let the US in your country, put up a token fight. Hide most of your troops. Start picking off soldiers and bombing stuff. Make sure you get civilians in the way. The US media will send the pictures back to the people, who can't stomach it. The media makes millions, the people protest, the troops are given restricted rules of engagement and finally withdrawn. Then, you come out of hiding, having defeated the US. If we hadn't caught Saddam, he would be back as soon as Kerry is elected. The sad part is that it cost many more lives than if we went in, took over and did what we wanted. IN this case, to help the Iraqi people set up their own government, free of saddam. I am not advocating nuking anyone here. In Iraq, everytime someone shoots at a US soldier, they get a 105 mm M1 tank round right back immediately, they would soon stop shooting. There would be higher initial innocent casualties, which we don't like/can't stand. But, it would result in far fewer total innocent casualties in the end. Its hard to think rationally, in terms of numbers when all you see are suffereing people on the TV.

  2. #62
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    Gene and John,

    You two sound like some retarded hillbilly nazis. I love America, but I hate stupid *ucks like you. I 'm a Muslim, I am an American (born and raised). You gonna nuke me? You gonna round up my family? If you where in Iran and needed help, you would be helped there faster than you would be helped here. Noboby cares about anyone else here, just their selves. Do you think Iranians should wage war on America, becaused the US paid and gave new technology weapons to Saddam to try and kill us? Over oil that was all that was about. America lost control of Iran and wanted it back. The shah of Iran was the US's puppet. To me it sounds like you two guys have never left the American continents.

    Go watch some more news some you can steal someone elses ideas. I know many muslims in the United states armed forces. fighting in Kuwait, Iraq, Afganastan. I myself was going to to be a translator for the marine corp. People like you would most likely have turned your back on us.

    You guys should hit me up when youre in Texas. Try and nuke me.

    I remember when Mcveigh blew up the building in Oklahoma, and everyone was saying it was Iranian terrorists (before they found out it was him). You know how many fights I was in because of my name, *ucking stupid!!!!!

    John Connolly, Youre my dog!! I got your back.

    Its funny because this kind of stuff is never going to end, even if you do wipe out all the muslims and their children. It would just be another race of people for you to hate. It will never end, as long as there is people there will be evil people. No matter what religion.
    Jahun Moayedzadeh

  3. #63
    Gene Williams Guest

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    You're still not to be trusted. Too bad...blood's thicker than water.

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    Mr. Clayton,

    So far all of your responses to me have been emotional, rathen than factual. I understand that you want vengeance and a militant attitude, but at the expense of our way of life? Maybe you'll be ok, in a gated community, or whatever, but I'm not willing to live like that.

    I think we're done talking, you and I-- you planted firmly on your side of the fence and I on mine.
    John Connolly

    Yamamoto Ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu

  5. #65
    Gene Williams Guest

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    BTW, I didn't have much use for Muslims and Arabs long before 9/11. They are crafty, grasping, sneaky, mercenary bedouins at heart and have caused nothing but trouble in their little dung heap of the world for decades. If it weren't for oil, they would have long ago been consigned to some richly deserved oblivion. Now, after WTC, I consider them worse than worthless.

  6. #66
    Tamdhu Guest

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    You gonna nuke me? You gonna round up my family?
    We already have nukes, and know how NOT to use them. The mullahs in Iran, on the other hand . . .

    Neither I nor anyone else is in the business of 'rounding up' anyone's family. The mullahs in Iran, on the other hand . . .

    Nazi? I'm not advocating the genocide or 'wiping out' of anyone or anyone's children. The mullahs in Iran, on the other hand . . .

    Retarded?

    . . .

    Okay, you got me there!

    Cheers, Nuhaj, and thanks for chiming in. I'm genuinely pleased to hear from your side of the ball-park, even if you are just chiming in with the usual litany of blaming the US for all the chaos and nonsense in your old home land. Sorry about those bozo's who said nasty things to you when we assumed that your country was at fault for the bombing. Glad to know, however, that you came through it just fine.

    Wish I could say the same for those who have suffered the slings and arrows of the . . . Iranian mullahs!

    To me it sounds like you two guys have never left the American continents.
    I . . . I went to Canada once!

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    Originally posted by wab25


    What little rights our POWs have are far more than the rights our soldiers have faced upon being captive. Heck, the POWs we have in Iraq have more rights than they did under Saddam, before we came. ( except for the authorities who no longer have the right rape, torture and kill when they see fit. sort of ruins the whole prison like atmosphere ).
    not really dude:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614063.shtml


    (CBS) Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.

    But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.

    It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report.

    Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq -- and possible prison time.
    Correspondent Dan Rather talks to one of those soldiers. And, for the first time, 60 Minutes II will show some of the pictures that led to the Army investigation.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    According to the U.S. Army, one Iraqi prisoner was told to stand on a box with his head covered, wires attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

    It was this picture, and dozens of others, that prompted an investigation by the U.S. Army. On Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, what went wrong.

    “Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few,” says Kimmitt. “Every day, we love our soldiers, but frankly, some days we're not always proud of our soldiers."

    For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who were taken to the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It was the centerpiece of Saddam’s empire of fear, and those prisoners who did make it out told nightmarish tales of torture beyond imagining – and executions without reason.

    60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared pictures of what Americans did there with two men who have extensive interrogation experience: Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau Chief Bob Baer.

    "I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was the most awful sight I've ever seen. I said, ‘If there's ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's because of Abu Ghraib,'” says Baer. “There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place."

    "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage,” says Cowan.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was American soldiers serving as military police at Abu Ghraib who took these pictures. The investigation started when one soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II has a dozen of these pictures, and there are many more – pictures that show Americans, men and women in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners.

    There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English.

    In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up.

    60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the soldiers facing charges. But the Army says they are all in Iraq, awaiting court martial.

    "What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and others who are going to see this and take it personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad.

    "The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down,” says Kimmitt.

    “Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well."

    “So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick.

    Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

    60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

    Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

    “We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."

    Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as “one of the best.”

    Frederick says Americans came into the prison: “We had military intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA ... All those that I didn't even know or recognize."

    Frederick's letters and email messages home also offer clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the interrogators:

    "Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "

    "They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."

    "We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    According to the Army’s own investigation, that’s what was happening. The Army found that interrogators asked reservists working in the prison to prepare the Iraqi detainees, physically and mentally, for questioning.

    What, if any actions, are being taken against the interrogators?

    "I hope the investigation is including not only the people who committed the crimes, but some of the people that might have encouraged these crimes as well,” says Kimmitt. “Because they certainly share some level of responsibility as well."

    But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib are facing criminal charges. In fact, a number of them are civilians, and military law doesn’t apply to them.

    One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was questioned by the Army, and he told investigators he had "broken several tables during interrogations, unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" prisoners. He denied hurting anyone.

    In our phone conversation, 60 Minutes II asked Frederick whether he had seen any prisoners beaten.

    “I saw things. We had to use force sometimes to get the inmates to cooperate, just like our rules of engagement said,” says Frederick. “We learned a little bit of Arabic, basic commands. And they didn't want to listen, so sometimes, you would just give them a little nudge or something like that just to get them to cooperate so we could get the mission accomplished."

    Attorney Gary Myers and a judge advocate in Iraq are defending Frederick. They say he should never have been charged, because of the failure of his commanders to provide proper training and standards.

    "The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating,” says Myers. “And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. ... And helping people they view as important."

    Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

    The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers who didn't get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular Army members.

    Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: “There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates."

    Rather asked Kimmitt about understaffing. "That doesn't condone individual acts of criminal behavior no matter how tired we are. No matter how stretched we are, that doesn't give us license and it doesn't give us the authority to break the law,” says Kimmitt.

    “That may have been a contributing factor, but at the end of the day, this is probably more about leadership, supervision, setting standards, abiding by the Army values and understanding what's right, and having the guts to say what's right.”
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky ran Abu Ghraib for the Army. She was also in charge of three other Army prison facilities that housed thousands of Iraqi inmates.

    The Army investigation determined that her lack of leadership and clear standards led to problems system wide. Karpinski talked with 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft last October at Abu Ghraib, before any of this came out.

    "This is international standards,” said Karpinski. “It's the best care available in a prison facility."

    But the Army investigation found serious problems behind the scenes. The Army has photographs that show a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. Frederick said that dogs were “used for intimidation factors.”

    Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."

    There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten.

    "It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a picture of that situation,” says Kimmitt.

    But what about the situation itself?

    “I don't know the facts surrounding what caused the bruising and the bleeding,” says Kimmitt. “If that is also one of the charges being brought against the soldiers, that too is absolutely unacceptable and completely outside of what we expect of our soldiers and our guards at the prisons."

    Is there any indication that similar actions may have happened at other prisons? “I'd like to sit here and say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that we're aware of, but we know that there have been some other ones since we've been here in Iraq,” says Kimmitt.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When Saddam ran Abu Ghraib prison, Iraqis were too afraid to come ask for information on their family members.

    When 60 Minutes II was there last month, hundreds had gathered outside the gates, worried about what is going on inside.

    "We will be paid back for this. These people at some point will be let out,” says Cowan. “Their families are gonna know. Their friends are gonna know."

    This is a hard story to have to tell when Americans are fighting and dying in Iraq. And for Cowan, it’s a personal issue. His son is an infantry soldier serving in Iraq for the last four months.

    Rather asked Cowan what he would say to "that person who is sitting in their living room and saying, ‘I wish they wouldn't do this. It's undermining our troops and they shouldn't do it.’"

    "If we don't tell this story, these kinds of things will continue. And we'll end up getting paid back 100 or 1,000 times over,” says Cowan. “Americans want to be proud of each and everything that our servicemen and women do in Iraq. We wanna be proud. We know they're working hard. None of us, now, later, before or during this conflict, should wanna let incidents like this just pass."

    Kimmitt says the Army will not let what happened at Abu Ghraib just pass. What does he think is the most important thing for Americans to know about what has happened?

    "I think two things. No. 1, this is a small minority of the military, and No. 2, they need to understand that is not the Army,” says Kimmitt. “The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values, and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals, but by God, it doesn't reflect my army."

    Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

    60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.



    © MMIV, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.
    Khaw Meng Lee

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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    BTW, I didn't have much use for Muslims and Arabs long before 9/11. They are crafty, grasping, sneaky, mercenary bedouins at heart and have caused nothing but trouble in their little dung heap of the world for decades.
    Sounds exactly like what the Nazis said about the Jews...are you sure you weren't at the Wansee Conference?
    Khaw Meng Lee

    "See my kote! See my kote! (kicks opponent in the crotch) Well ya should have been watching my foot!"
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    BWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    I know they all think the same about you. I know I do. I can tell you have never met a middle eastern. Just by how you said that. Its just like all the other racist people I have met. They hate someone they have never met. Sad, sad world you live in, man. The people I feel sorry for mostly is your children, if you have any and/or when you have some. Teaching your family to be cowards.

    Gene, my offer still stands, Im here having fun with american women.
    Jahun Moayedzadeh

  10. #70
    wab25 Guest

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    I am as outraged by the acts of these soldiers, as much as you are. But, weren't you just telling me how I am lumping all muslims together based on the actions of a few? Seems kind of funny that now after we settled the fact that you cannot lump entire groups together that way, you lump all US soldiers into a lump based on the actions of a few. The bigger point is this: these men are to be punished for their actions and misstreament of the POWs. Punished by the United States government. Which other country would even care about how their soldiers treat POWs? Have you ever talked with American POWs from Vietnam? Same sort of stuff happened to them, only the North Vietnamese government encouraged such behavior. We are trying to stop it, and have good success at stopping it. The fact that the Army deals with these cases so severly, is a comfort to me. I hope they shoot the guys who did it.

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    John Clayton can confirm many of these, but will probably call them casualties of the Cold War...

    1946- U.S. opens School of the Americas in Panama. Now located in Fort Benning, Georgia, the "School of the Assassins" has taught over 60,000 personnel from some of the world's most brutal regimes how to subvert the truth, to muzzle union leaders, activist clergy, and journalists, and to make war on their own people.

    1951- CIA is involved in a coup to overthrow nationalist Primeminister Dr. Muhammed Mossadeq in Iran. Supports Iranian military in massacre of Mossadeq supporters and returns the Shah to power. In 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA-trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet, and that the number and variety of torture techniques the CIA had taught SAVAK were "beyond belief." 1951-CIA involved in terror campaign against democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala. After Arbenz government is overthrown, CIA backed regimes murder more than 100,000 Guatemalans over the next 40 years.

    1961- CIA recruits 1500 Cuban exiles to invade Cuba and overthrow the Castro regime. The "Pay of Pigs" invasion would be a disaster, however the CIA would continue with more than two dozen attempts to kill Castro.

    1963- The CIA have South Vietnemese president Ngo Dinh Diem overthrown and assasinated for supporting negotiations with the north. After 20 years of covert war the U.S. turns to direct military invasion, in a war that costs tens of thousands of Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, and U.S. lives.

    1963- CIA recruits Iraqi Baath Party (including a young Saddam Hussein) to assasinate the new leader, Abdul-Karim Kassem. After the coup, the CIA gave the Baath a long list of communists and others to liquidate. During the 1980s the CIA would go on to help provide weapons to both Iraq and Iran in a war that would kill over one million people.

    1965- CIA provokes a coup that leads to the overthrow of Indonesian leader Sukarno, who is replaced by General Suharto. In the follow ing weeks between 500,000 and one million people are murdered by death squads using lists provided by US State Department.

    1973- After interfering in Chilean elections in 1958 and 1964, the CIA begins a campaign of sabotage and terror after leftist Salvadore Allende is elected president in 1970. In 1973, a CIA supported coup overthrew and assassinated Allende and installed fascist General Pinochet, resulting in thousands of murders over the next two decades. This year in France, former U.S. secretary of state, Henry Kissinger was served a (mostly symbolic) warrant for arrest as a war criminal for his role in the coup.

    1979- After Nicaraguan dictator Samosa is overthrown in 1979, the CIA helps to train Samosa's National Guard into death squads known as the Contras. The Contras are used to terrorize rural Nicaragua while the US military blockades Nicaragua's harbors with mines. In 1989, after 10,000 deaths, the US is successful in ousting the Sandanista government.

    1989- US invades Panama to overthrow and "arrest" Manuel Noriega, who has been on the CIA payroll since 1966 and supported through decades of drug running, political assassination and corrupt elections. After the invasion, which included the fire bombing of an entire urban ghetto, human rights observers uncover mass graves and estimate that over 4,000 died during the invasion.

    1991- US and allies (mostly Britain) invade Iraq after U.S./CIA supported Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait. 200,000 Iraqis are killed, including over 400 civilians killed by two U.S. missiles in the Al-Amerya air shelter. Over the next 10 years another 400 tons of explosives will be dropped on Iraq killing another 300 civilians, and hundreds of thousands more starved through U.S. imposed sanctions. The U.S. forces Saudi Arabia to allow thousands of U.S. military to remain indefinitely within its boarders.

    1998- Al Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan is bombed without warning by 13 U.S. cruise missiles killing a janitor. The attack deprives Sudan of desperately needed medical drugs and potentially killing tens of thousands of people. The CIA later admits that information linking the plant to Osama bin Laden was probably "incorrect."

    That's just a few.
    John Connolly

    Yamamoto Ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu

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    Post a couple of things here!

    First off, in order to understand why we befriended Hussein and sold him weapons and all that, we actually have to go back to the Carter years. We were allies with the Shah of Iran. A beast, to be sure, but less than most other rulers in the area, plus, he was somewhat pro-USA. We had an important listening post there, among other things. When President Carter stopped aid to Iran and did nothing to come to our ally's aid to prevent his overthrowing, the area went into crisis and became ruled by a militant minority, headed by the Ayatollah Khomeni. The end result was the Iran Hostage Crisis. Also coming out of this came the Iran-Contra debacle. These things can be discussed at a later time...just giving a bit of perspective here.

    We needed a presence, a friend in the region. Saddam Hussein became that friend, for better or worse. For several years he was a decent ally, we never heard of the bad stuff going on. Then, well, you know the rest.

    As far as the war in Iraq being illegal, well, how is that determined. It is undisputed that Iraq was in material breach of the U.N.'s resolutions and had repeatedly violated the termsof the cease fire from the previous conflict. You could actually go two ways with this...we are either enforcing the U.N. resolutions, or resuming the previous action because of the cease fire violations. Either way it falls under appropriate action by international law.

    With the WMD's...we know he had them at one time, he used them. That is also undisputed. He was given several chances to prove that what he had left had been destroyed. He failed to provide that proof, knowing full well that military action was the other option. He was given notice of the conditions and had plenty of opportunity to demonstrate compliance...he was stubborn and refused.

    The election...get over it. The courts did not stop the counting of ballots. It stopped the selective repeated recounting of ballots in selected precincts. Several major news organizations, both pro-Gore and pro-Bush, went down and actually counted the ballots several times. Every time Bush won. That's why you don't hear of it. Do you ever hear that Gore actually conceded the election to Bush? No. But he did. Then, he took it back. Then the lawsuits started. Should Bush not have defended his position? Of course not. Overall, though, Gore did get more votes than Bush, he won the popular vote. However, in the USA we elect a president by the electoral college. Whether it's a good system or not has been debated here already. Currently, it's what we have. The only dispute with the electoral college in this particular election was Florida. And that will always be a sticking point for those that were or are anti-Bush. With the independent news organizations results I don't think the election was stolen. If I were a democrat I would stop harping on the past...get over it and concentrate on the future. An election is coming up. Figuring a way to take the White House back should be a priority. Giving people a reason to replace the current occupant should be the focus. Instead, the democrats just want anyone in there but Bush. Everything is "he's an idiot" or "we can't stand him" or some other vitriol. Little, if any, is talked about why we should vote for John Kerry, just why we shouldn't vote for Bush. IMHO, not the way to garner votes...not that they had mine anyway.

    With respect,

    Mitch Saret

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    Originally posted by nuhaj
    BWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    I know they all think the same about you. I know I do. I can tell you have never met a middle eastern. Just by how you said that. Its just like all the other racist people I have met. They hate someone they have never met. Sad, sad world you live in, man. The people I feel sorry for mostly is your children, if you have any and/or when you have some. Teaching your family to be cowards.

    Gene, my offer still stands, Im here having fun with american women.
    Agreed dude, Its sad to have a father like Gene...well, more embarrasing than anything. I can just picture his face in a "guess who's coming for dinner" scenario.
    Khaw Meng Lee

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    Meng just before being given hansoku.

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    Originally posted by Tamdhu
    We already have nukes, and know how NOT to use them. The mullahs in Iran, on the other hand . . .

    Neither I nor anyone else is in the business of 'rounding up' anyone's family. The mullahs in Iran, on the other hand . . .

    Nazi? I'm not advocating the genocide or 'wiping out' of anyone or anyone's children. The mullahs in Iran, on the other hand . . .

    Retarded?

    . . .

    Okay, you got me there!

    Cheers, Nuhaj, and thanks for chiming in. I'm genuinely pleased to hear from your side of the ball-park, even if you are just chiming in with the usual litany of blaming the US for all the chaos and nonsense in your old home land. Sorry about those bozo's who said nasty things to you when we assumed that your country was at fault for the bombing. Glad to know, however, that you came through it just fine.

    Wish I could say the same for those who have suffered the slings and arrows of the . . . Iranian mullahs!



    I . . . I went to Canada once!
    John,
    I think you missed the point. I wasn't blaming America for any chaos now. I was just comparing, America knows what its doing. I LOVE AMERICA. I don't always agree with what is going on. I will back america.

    I agree, totally about the mullahs. they are hurting their own people. I'm telling you guys Iran LOVEs america too, but the mullahs make it hard, unless youre willing to die.

    John, Name calling isn't bad. These people tried to hurt me. I had to hurt people to stop them. I don't like that. I really had to hurt people so they wouldn't possibly kill me. Do you know what that feels like? To have Americans trying to kill another because his name is different. I only half iranian, half every thing else. My mom is a white girl from Texas. I don't fit in in Iran or America, but I should.

    God bless, John
    Jahun Moayedzadeh

  15. #75
    wab25 Guest

    Default

    John Connolly, thanks for the info. I need to look up some of these things as I am not familiar with most of them. With the ones I do know a little about, the bit that you posted is extremely onesided. ( I guess thats to be expected as we are discussing two opposed ideas ) Things like the US and Britons invasion of Iraq in 1991. This was a UN action, as everyone likes to forget, and was done to free Kuwait from Iraq. I don't see us as a bad guy there.

    Most of the others I will have to research a bit, to form my opinions on, but I appreciate what you gave, to point me in the direction to look. Though I can't garrauntee that I will have the same conclusions about all the actions as you do.

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