Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: Shobu Aikido:Aiki Hippies or Practical Martial Art?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    192
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Shobu Aikido:Aiki Hippies or Practical Martial Art?

    I recently observed a class at Shobu Aikido in Boston Mass. Sensei William Gleason appears to be an excellent teacher drawing upon a very extensive and impressive background.

    Their system appears very soft however. Almost dance like. One of the senior students explained to me that "Often the focus in our classes is on feeling. Both sempai and beginner students are focusing on the same concepts. Other dojo’s typically spend the first few years on technique, which tends to be the Aikido roots (Jui Jitsu, manipulations…) and start training “Aikido” when the students reach black belt levels." I never thought along these lines. Very interesting that Aikido was more than just throws and manipulations. A bit eye opening for me I must admit. That there was a bigger concept at work here.

    Feeling vs. the ju jitsu aspect? I think the all-feeling-concept is what I was seeing. It appeared they were training without any resistance. It did not look practical at all. However it did sound related to what is commonly espoused in Systema circles.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on Shobu and Sensei Gleason specifically and this type of training in general?

    Stanley Neptune

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Hiroshima, Japan.
    Posts
    2,550
    Likes (received)
    151

    Default Re: Shobu Aikido:Aiki Hippies or Practical Martial Art?

    Originally posted by stanley neptune
    I recently observed a class at Shobu Aikido in Boston Mass. Sensei William Gleason appears to be an excellent teacher drawing upon a very extensive and impressive background.

    Their system appears very soft however. Almost dance like. One of the senior students explained to me that "Often the focus in our classes is on feeling. Both sempai and beginner students are focusing on the same concepts. Other dojo’s typically spend the first few years on technique, which tends to be the Aikido roots (Jui Jitsu, manipulations?) and start training “Aikido? when the students reach black belt levels." I never thought along these lines. Very interesting that Aikido was more than just throws and manipulations. A bit eye opening for me I must admit. That there was a bigger concept at work here.

    Feeling vs. the ju jitsu aspect? I think the all-feeling-concept is what I was seeing. It appeared they were training without any resistance. It did not look practical at all. However it did sound related to what is commonly espoused in Systema circles.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on Shobu and Sensei Gleason specifically and this type of training in general?

    Stanley Neptune
    A few general comments.

    Mr Gleason left Japan the year I myself arrived, but his teacher was Seigo Yamaguchi Shihan and I was able to take classes with Yamaguchi Sensei and get to know him quite well, well enough to discuss with him issues such as you raise here.

    According to the black belt you quoted, I suppose my own training would be technique, but it is interesting that when I came to Japan, my own previous teacher in the UK (K Chiba Shihan) advised me to train under three teachers in the Aikikai Hombu, specifically, H Tada, S Arikawa--and S Yamaguchi.

    My own view is that things are more complicated. There is a difference between form (kata in Japanese), technique (waza in Japanese) and feeling, which encompasses both of these. In my opinion, Yamaguchi Sensei's aikido was relatively formless (compared with that of, say, M Saito Shihan), but full of technique and feeling. In fact he was a master technician, but never communicated this in terms of a structured teaching syllabus with a view to 'practical' applications.

    Thus, students came to Yamaguchi Sensei's classes later on in their aikido careers (and training in his dojo in Shibuya--no tatami--was by invitation only and for those of 3rd dan and above). His students have had to work out for themselves how to replicate his genius in their own aikido and I suspect Mr Gleason has formed his own priorities. As I have myself. For me, form comes first and technique is added sparingly. But both involve feeling.

    Unless I have misunderstood you...

    Best regards,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Ft. Laud., Fl.
    Posts
    604
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Shobu Aikido:Aiki Hippies or Practical Martial Art?

    Originally posted by stanley neptune
    I recently observed a class at Shobu Aikido in Boston Mass....Their system appears very soft however. Almost dance like. One of the senior students explained to me that "Often the focus in our classes is on feeling....Other dojo’s typically spend the first few years on technique, which tends to be the Aikido roots (Jui Jitsu, manipulations…) and start training “Aikido” when the students reach black belt levels."
    This interests me at a couple of points.

    As an attendee of Gleason's recent seminar in Tallahassee, I found the man solid always. He looks soft, but there is more to it than cooperation. What particularly caught my attention was a very soft IKKYO he does. He accepts the SHOMEN UCHI at a different place than have I (he seems to walk right into it, if my perception is to be trusted--I'm not sure I do) and I thought he was sloppy at first. I took the UKEMI, deftly dodging the elbow he kept clumsily protruding into my face...irony intended.

    He also has done interesting things with the KOTODAMA and elements he writes about in his book. It offers a different organizational principle for technique and practice. Very stimulating.

    As a teacher, I see a parallel between the (psuedo-?)distinction in aikido between form and feeling and the distinction made in my profession, language teaching, between form and communication. Thirty-five years or so ago, there was a revolution in language teaching coeval with Chomsky's refutation of Skinner. Teaching went from incessant, numbing pattern drills to communication based exercises. Patently, you need both. But I rather suspect that a teaching pendulum is swinging back and forth in aikido. The UCHIDESHI organized Osensei's infamous free-form "teaching"; they moved to pattern practice, if I'm allowed this parallel. Gleason, and I think Saotome and Yamaguchi, fell more on the side of what you've called feeling.

    In my own language teaching, I follow insights of the day by opening class with a communication exercize--diagnosis of needy areas, if you will--and then so-called mini-lessons on discrete grammar points (in the manner of the older structure-based tradition), i.e., I try to incorporate both elements of grammar and communication. I seek this balance in my aikido training as well.

    Gleason and Saotome are both excellent teachers. I quite benefitted from a stint at the dojo of Peter Bernath, a Yamada student, however, and his greater emphasis on form.

    Teaching aikido, I tend to appreciate the Iwama line about basics first and teach them clearly and repetitively. I can't help also appreciate the delight and growth my students obviously experience when I introduce "feeling" exercizes, too.

    Thanks for the post.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    from deadly wild north
    Posts
    499
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Shobu Aikido:Aiki Hippies or Practical Martial Art?
    My guess is: Aiki Hippies!
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Ft. Laud., Fl.
    Posts
    604
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by szczepan
    My guess is: Aiki Hippies!
    My suggestion is: Take the UKEMI!
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Brooksville, Fla.
    Posts
    137
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Feeling confused

    Don,

    Now you've got me confused. I don't see much difference in training form and feeling. For me, they are inseparable because only correct form allows the proper "feeling" to occur. Without correct form, there is no "aiki." When we praactice aiki taiso, it is to develop, among other things, a certain feeling and body awareness. Then we take that feeling and try to maintain it with a willing partner, then with less willing partners. Someday, we hope to be able to maintain that feeling while fully engaged in mortal combat with multiple antagonists. Too many people practice form as "doing" something to someone rather than feeling the spontaneous creation of technique. It's hard to teach spontaneity or the ability to extemporize. Look how few great jazzmen there really are, folks who can really jam, compared to the number of musicians out there. And note how many of those guys are classically trained musicians who can read music, spout theory with the best of them, and play anything they want. I can't teach my students to jam but I certainly can get them ready to try.

    I, too, have trained with Gleason Sensei and found him solid and not at all a "softy." He just doesn't have the egotistical need to prove to you that he can bash your face in if he wants to. Perhaps Stanley got him on a night when he was in a good mood. Gleason is affiliated with Saotome Sensei who is arguably one of the "softest" instructors out there. That is because of his incredible technical form and his ability to use that form to effectuate his goals. Saotome is no aiki bunny although his message seems attractive to many who are. They do not understand what it is that he is teaching. I suspect Gleason's classes are along the same lines. He's no bunny and is quite serious about form. It is very hard to get an idea of what he may have been doing from watching one class. And yes, Stanley, Aikido is a whole lot more than throws and manipulations. You forgot the atemi
    Ian McDonald
    Ichi go, ichi e
    The swamps are good along the WeekiWachee

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    from deadly wild north
    Posts
    499
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by don
    My suggestion is: Take the UKEMI!
    I thought about that seriously. Only I wonder if it will be not waste of my (how precious!!) time and so rare(those days) money ?
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    192
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by szczepan
    I thought about that seriously. Only I wonder if it will be not waste of my (how precious!!) time and so rare(those days) money ?
    I don't think it would be a waste of your time? What better way to learn than to get on the mat. I plan to do so after the feedback thus far. MAKE TIME TO LEARN. What else do you have to do?

    Stanley Neptune

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    from deadly wild north
    Posts
    499
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by stanley neptune
    I don't think it would be a waste of your time? What better way to learn than to get on the mat. I plan to do so after the feedback thus far. MAKE TIME TO LEARN. What else do you have to do?

    Stanley Neptune
    Thing is more complicated then you can suspect. There are very many 6th dans around that give seminars and Mr Gleason isn't at all on the top of this list. There are also many semianars with shihans around. So I must carefully choose the source od my learning

    Originally posted by Ian McDonald And yes, Stanley, Aikido is a whole lot more than throws and manipulations. You forgot the atemi
    I suppose that you are talking here about uke's atemi?
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Westfield MA
    Posts
    356
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I never had the chance to train with Mr. Gleason, but my teacher (6th dan Shihan, personal student of Chiba Sensei) has said the guy really knows his stuff. So who am I to argue?

    Shobu Aikido Students on the other hand are quite another story. I have trained with many of them at seminars; mostly yudansha and I have been thoroughly un-impressed. I would defiantly classify them as aiki-bunnies. I don’t think this has anything to do with the quality of Mr. Gleason’s aikido, just that the aiki-bunny types seems to gravitate to his organization. Kind of like Ki-Society IMO. Two very good instructors respectively (Tohei / Gleason), with a slew of touchy feely types training beneath them.
    Tim Mailloux

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Ft. Laud., Fl.
    Posts
    604
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by szczepan
    I thought about that seriously. Only I wonder if it will be not waste of my (how precious!!) time and so rare(those days) money ?
    Ugly truth be told, I often get more out of the seminars and classes of SHIHANs' DESHI than of the SHIHAN themselves.

    FWIW, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Gleason. I got far more out of his seminar than I have out of those given by those with far more illustrious names. As always, CAVEAT EMPTOR.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Ft. Laud., Fl.
    Posts
    604
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Feeling confused

    Hi, Ian!

    Originally posted by Ian McDonald
    ...I don't see much difference in training form and feeling. For me, they are inseparable because only correct form allows the proper "feeling" to occur....

    DJM: When I make this distinction, I mean how Bernath, and thus presumably Yamada, will tell you quite confidently where to put your foot at each stage of the technique, e.g. I don't think I've ever seen Saotome do this.

    Too many people practice form as "doing" something to someone rather than feeling the spontaneous creation of technique.

    DJM: Nicely put. I WILL be stea...borrowing that. I think what you're getting at is a shortcoming of emphasis on form. On the other hand, one needs to inform the body of the parameters of technique when working from the feeling end of the continuum for "spontaneous creation of technique" to occur. In any case, there are beautiful players in both camps and I think their talents do converge.
    Don J. Modesto
    Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
    ------------------------
    http://theaikidodojo.com/

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Brooksville, Fla.
    Posts
    137
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    No Szczepan, not uke. It's a joke, son. I say, it's a joke! However, the joke's on you. Didn't O'Sensei say something to the effect that his art was all about atemi?

    And Don, I teach my students exactly where to put their foot at each step of the way, however, my approach is different from the Federation's. I don't want students to just memorize what to do, where to step, if he's here do gyaku hanmi, if he's there do ai hanmi. I want them to be able to feel the attacking forces so that their movements are precisely aligned to do whatever they need or want to do. That way, they know why they move to a particular position. So I may have them shift incrementally to a certain spot so they can find where they are safe, where uke's balance starts to break, or where uke cannot resist their movements. That is why "soft" training is needed at times, to help isolate and identify what are very complex and dynamic relationships. Once they get an idea of what is going on, I speed up to a more reasonable training level.

    Bottom line, these disagreements about form/feeling are mostly semantic and serve more as entertainment for us than provide any real insights.
    Ian McDonald
    Ichi go, ichi e
    The swamps are good along the WeekiWachee

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    metropolitan new york
    Posts
    289
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Originally posted by szczepan
    Thing is more complicated then you can suspect. There are very many 6th dans around that give seminars and Mr Gleason isn't at all on the top of this list. There are also many semianars with shihans around. So I must carefully choose the source od my learning
    Do choose carefully Szczepan.

    For my money, the rank issue is a red herring. I can think of third dan instructors that would appear on my list ahead of much, much more highly ranked and better known individuals without regard to the affiliation of either. The issue is depth and breadth of training.

    As you are certainly aware, although the age of explicit rules is some time past, some organizations with which you may be quite familiar continue to have very strong customs that discourage attending seminars taught by anyone whose name isn't on the organization's "approved" list. By definition in such cases, outside instructors are not only not on the top of the list, they're not on the list at all.

    This is common in koryu arts, but the method of training there is so very different than the cattle call of your average aikido seminar that -- to my mind at least -- it's hard to make a sound pedagogical argument for its continuance into a gendai art such as aikido, although there may be sound business reasons and others may find some "cultural" argument about the "nature of the relationship between instructor and student and respect in the martial arts" sufficient.

    Certainly, some students -- even sixth dans -- who have attended (or worse, sponsored) seminars taught by instructors who are not on the list have found themselves in a bit of hot water with their own teachers; needless to say, they found themselves crossways with their own teacher's firm views on such matters. In this, I am referring not merely to historical matters, but events that are relatively recent.

    Personally, I find that hot water, along with a little soap, is generally cleansing, but to each his own.


    Regardz,

    Fred Little

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    125
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    The best part is, it seems to me more ppl are worried about being called an 'aiki-bunny' than being told they are not doing it right - its ok not to be doing it right, providing its not wimpish. ^_^ Such pride.

    My Sensei teaches more about 'feeling' as he calls it than anything, and uses very soft waza. Now I intend to train at this dojo for a little longer, I'm about to pay for my lisence, but he is a definite example of an easy-minded martial artist.

    (I was a little unsure of his warm-down session last lesson though... which was a full body massarge. I mean, how rediculous was that? What place does it have in an aikido dojo?)

    Well anyway, personally from what I've read about the founder of aikido and later aikidoka, I think some aikido today is basically aikijujutsu. Not Daito Ryu, but aikijujutsu all the same. Before I start using that term instead of aikido maybe I should check my definitions of both arts over though...

    I don't mean this to diss anyone. Frankly I'd love to train in aikijujutsu, if only the nearest dojo wasn't so hard to reach.
    Current notion: How would you define a 'skinny drink'?

    -Stephen Lewin

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •