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Thread: Grappling Redux

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    Default Grappling Redux

    Okay--- lets try this one more time as the original question from the last thread didn't seem to get the full benefit of everybody's attention.

    For the purposes of this discussion I am NOT advocating for a purposeful attack by an unarmed person against an individual with a weapon. The original string I started began with the idea that Kendo practitioners might use a grappling maneuver if the opportunity presented itself. Having done that what would to effect be on the contest be, I wondered. From that point I shifted my focus a bit to include the question as to whether anyone (Kendo, Kenjutsu, Kumdo Kum-Bup) trains in grappling as an adjunct to their swordwork against the chance that one might suddenly find themselves without a weapon against a person still possessing theirs. The reason for this was my observation that

    1.) while some grappling arts seem to invoke origins in armed combat (often sword or staff),

    2.) few ARMED arts seem to rationally consider the role of grappling.

    I find this curious given premise #1. For instance, if one were to posit that DRAJJ techniques had their foundation (even partially) in swordwork, would it not follow that some swordwork mandates that a person know what to do if they lose their sword? Sorry if we got off on a tangent in the previous string, but these were the questions I was hoping to address and we only seemed to have touched on them in a couple of instances. Thoughts? Comments? Experiences? Training?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Default grappling

    Many of the older ryuha included a sub-curriculum of jujutsu; for instance (just off the top of my head): Kashima Shinryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Kiraku Ryu, Araki Ryu ... I'm sure thee are more. Even in more modern cognates, such as MJER/MSR iaido, there are some of the paired forms that include a bit of jujutsu-ish maneuvering.

    And of course, there are the jujutsu ryuha in which sword training also appears, such as Takenouchi Ryu.

    In the old days, kendo definitely included a grappling component, too. I've seen film footage of matches (dunno if they were official or just in-dojo playing) that wound up with one partner on the floor getting his men ripped off.

    Chuck
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
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  3. #3
    Aaron Sher Guest

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    Yagyu Shinkage "muto" techniques, which focus on disarming techniques, lead very easily into grappling. It's quite common, when you're disarming your opponent, for neither of you to end up with the sword - at this point, if you keep your intent focused, you can turn the disarm into a takedown or a joint lock without too much effort.

  4. #4
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Swordwork is swordwork-jujutsu is jujutsu. I thought the only intelligent response in the previous attempt at this was from Richard Elias and I don’t necessarily agree with his answer (rare as that may be). While many arts have disarming techniques- I would venture to guess these take-away techniques were never taken very seriously by seasoned men then or now. And Richard was speaking more of close-in work WITH blades.

    As for all of this Kendo tussling and rasslin?
    Whacking is not cutting and all cutting is not the same.
    There are sword arts where the blade is used in a closer style of cutting with ample opportunity for cutting and stabbing in very small movements. Many arts do not use those big over arching type of cuts. Closing would NOT be the thing I would want to do with those styles.
    As for closing by choice. In a larger context we would have:
    A sword against sword. Closing would be an unnecessary risk-and foolish if you had a blade.

    Suddenly unarmed against a sword- Closing would be an unnecessary risk. On the proverbial battlefield- grab up something else.
    Why risk an almost certain loss?

    These questions belong in a sport context or a Dojo make-believe discussion. They speak of lack of awareness of human life and measured risk against unneeded gain. Further I personally believe many people have no idea of the “potential” of cutting in close quarters outside of Kata.
    Shinai and Bokuto are not Katana. As for training to test theories? Using a dull blade and having someone try to get in on you or your dojo mates without losing their theoretical lives really only speaks to the level of training of one or both of you. Put chalk on the blade side and point of a bokuto and let a guy in a white keikogi try to close-in…..Buy stain remover for the washing machine---you’ll need it. Chaulk is easier then blood to get out. Facing someone else may surprise you. There are legends around these types of surprises. It’s a twice told tale.
    All things being equal-I’ll bet on the guy with the blade.

    The whole discussion reminds me of a training session with a few seals. He said “I am here by choice to augment our training. I’m in your world. In my world-if you came after me He would shoot you. If you went after him I would shoot you. Its about weapons.”

    Here you want to talk about having them and not using them? Why?

    Next I suppose you could talk about grappling against a spear?
    Can I be the guy with the spear?

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 5th May 2004 at 12:21.

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    Dear Dan:

    ".....The whole discussion reminds me of a training session with a few seals. He said “I am here by choice to augment our training. I’m in your world. In my world-if you came after me He would shoot you. If you went after him I would shoot you. Its about weapons.”

    Here you want to talk about having them and not using them? Why?

    Next I suppose you could talk about grappling against a spear?
    Can I be the guy with the spear?...."

    I can't fault your pragmatism and, honestly, I think its important NOT to become to esoteric in some of these discussions. My investment in the question comes in three parts.

    The first part is what I mentioned in the opening post. Emptyhand people often speak to how their material relates to armed techniques but there does not seem to be much represented going the other way.

    The second point is that you are exactly right about weapons. SF people who train in exotic fighting arts might do so for a variety of reasons but they know deep in their hearts that the first resort is to their primary weapon and not to some exotic art.

    The third point, and I mean no disrespect here, is that the pragmatists often cause people to turn away from traditional material as impractical. Arguably many techniques and tactics HAVE truely become impractical with the advent of firearms and TAZERS. No arguement there. However, I think there is a loss of culture when this material is lost. This may not matter much to someone, perhaps a LEO, who is only concerned with subduing a perp with minimal damage. But within the larger context of training as a MA I get concerned. Even within the short discussion we have here I already hear people saying that at one time grappling in Kendo, for instance, was observed but that it has become increasingly rare. For me this is not a good sign. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Last night at kendo practice me and a buddy got to tusslin. It starts when we come to taiatari or otherwise get tangled up because we are both moving forward. At one point, I threw my buddy with something like a headlock throw. He got his revenge in the very next exchange by dumping me to the floor with something like o soto gari.

    My throw came from my judo background and involved the tsuka, and I was surprised when he went over - I apologized because I had not meant to throw him, only see where the throw could go. The amazing thing about his throw was that it came from his aikido background and it was almost textbook in how it blasted me to earth, redirected my momentum, the whole bit. It was something like O soto gari.

    http://www.judoinfo.com/quiz0297_3.htm

    As I was helped back to my feet, laughing my arse off, I actually thought to myself, "Hey, I'll go post this on e-budo tomorrow!"

    Anywho...

    That's just rough kendo play, I suppose. I think Bruce had a good point when he asks why the techniques of grappling are in there if they are not meant to be taken seriously, practiced and used. I don't know the answer myself but would simply add that I believe historically a lot of bushi relied on good ol' farm-boy wrasslin' or folk-style sumo to suffice for their hand-to-hand work because obviously it was all about weapons.

    I wonder if a contemporary analogy can be found in the hand-to-hand work of modern armed forces. It's been my limited experience that usually a few tried-and-true methods are dilligently memorized and practiced even though the emphasis is on weapons. And I have this from a friend of mine who was a USMC anti-terrorist specialist when he was active. I'll have to ask him more about it next time I see him. From what I recall, he told me that in the Corps he mostly learned hand-to-hand with hard PT and the whatchamacallit, snake pit (buncha guys in a dirt pile), but that he did know - and believed in - a few wristie-twisties, some for use against firearms. FWIW.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    In ancient times, in a realistic situation, most warriors carried a backup weapon so as if something happened to their sword or whatever main weapon. So if one lost their sword, the fight would probably not make it to barehand grappling against a still armed opponent as the one who lost their main weapon have a backup weapon or 2. Samurais carrying a wakizashi or tanto.

    In the battlefield, Samurais use a spear or yari. A sword would be a back up weapon then probably their wakizashi or tanto after if that weapon is lost.

    Chinese warriors did the same thing in the battlefield. Using a long weapon like a spear first, their sword is a back up weapon, then a smaller weapon like a dagger would be the next back up, and maybe even carry projectiles like darts or throwing knives.

    I wouldn't doubt that grappling didn't happen in ancient times with warriors armed with weapons and didn't carry just one. The fights probably ended in stab/cut.

    I think grappling is more used in modern times as Martial Artists don't walk around with swords and spears anymore on the streets. And grappling happens with knife or gun (at close range). Not that grappling didn't happen in ancient times, but when armed with a few weapons back then and there are of course techniques of barehand against weapons, it was unlikely that your unarmed enemy would be able to choke you out or lock/break a joint without the possibility of getting killed on the way in.

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    Glad2bhere


    As I understand it MOST forms of koryu included grappling as part of the fighting techniques.

    Mainly to be used as the opportunity permitted or the situation required.
    Like in your example of being unable to get to a weapon.

    This would be even more evident in the older styles of koryu which assumed (at least some) battlefield combat--in armor would be taking place.

    The armor making it harder to score a fast kill (as comapred to un-armored) and (maybe) allowing for more really close range combat.

    Some styles used a "armor piercing" dirk for exactly that kind of close range fight.

    Also pretty clear that pre-war kendo also allowed and used a wide range of "grappling" style techniques.

    Maybe where I am disconnecting is that I never considered that some styles might NOT include such techniques.

    Chris Thomas

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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Swordwork is swordwork-jujutsu is jujutsu. I thought the only intelligent response in the previous attempt at this was from Richard Elias and I don’t necessarily agree with his answer (rare as that may be).
    Yes and no. In some systems, at least, sword work and jujutsu are complementary and mutually reinforcing. As I said in the other thread,

    As it happens, grappling and throwing -- including using the sword as a tool for the purpose -- is very much a part of some koryu bugei systems. In those of the Bujinkan, four ryuha I can think of immediately where it's a common feature (for different reasons depending on the ryuha) are Kukishinden ryu Happo Biken, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, and Togakure ryu.

    It's a major feature of armored battlefield swordsmanship as exemplified by the first one I mentioned above, as frequently the "ideal" clean cuts you'd do in unarmored dueling are not easy to achieve. Since you still need to kill the opponent, what is often needed is to place the edge or point at an opening or weak spot on the yoroi while taking the opponent's balance and push the cut or thrust through; and often this happens "inside" the range of his own sword. (This also is done with polearms such as yari and naginata as well, often outside the range of his sword.) Joint-locking and/or throwing, using the weapon for leverage, is often a part of the cutting action.

    Takagi Yoshin ryu contains an entire body of material referred to as daisho sabaki, dealing with jujutsu methods used where both combatants are wearing their swords but the "defender" hasn't yet drawn his as he's being attacked (while the attacker may either have already drawn his or be in the act of drawing). The concept behind this is that in such a situation you have, in addition to your taijutsu or body skills, four swords available to you: both of yours and both of his.
    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Further I personally believe many people have no idea of the “potential” of cutting in close quarters outside of Kata.
    I definitely agree. In fact, that's included in what I was saying above: It's something either combatant can do.

    While many arts have disarming techniques- I would venture to guess these take-away techniques were never taken very seriously by seasoned men then or now.
    While some of our muto dori and daisho sabaki methods do feature disarms -- in the sense of "taking away" the opponent's sword -- an equal or greater number do not: Instead, one uses the opponent's own sword against him while he still has at least a partial grip on it.

    By the way, I'm not suggesting for a moment that muto dori is something anyone can learn to do with ease. In 2002 Hatsumi sensei was focusing on concepts associated with jutaijutsu as expressed via Takagi Yoshin ryu. In one session at the Hombu toward the end of the year he had us begin working on a Takagi muto dori technique, then after a while stopped and pointed out that no one was really ready to do muto dori. He called up several of the Japanese shihan and, with a fukuro shinai, whacked each one in succession before they could move. Then he said, "This is why until now I haven't been teaching the muto dori techniques this year." (That was followed by a kuden regarding how to actually DO muto dori.)

    Next I suppose you could talk about grappling against a spear?
    Can I be the guy with the spear?
    Hmmm. Fellow in my dojo tried to get me with a yari recently. But then he's only sandan.
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

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    Originally posted by glad2bhere
    Emptyhand people often speak to how their material relates to armed techniques but there does not seem to be much represented going the other way.
    Emptyhand people who speak of such things often don't have the foggiest clue about weapons. "The sword is simply an extension of the hand" goes the old saw, therefore no special training required - just add sword to existing waza, stir and voila: Krappy Karate Katana Kamae.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Emptyhand people who speak of such things often don't have the foggiest clue about weapons. "The sword is simply an extension of the hand" goes the old saw, therefore no special training required - just add sword to existing waza, stir and voila: Krappy Karate Katana Kamae.
    Amen, brother!!!
    One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worse than a fool.

    -- Yamaoka Tesshu

  12. #12
    X-san Guest

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    Next I suppose you could talk about grappling against a spear?
    Can I be the guy with the spear?
    Easier to do. Grab the shaft.

    There are sword arts where the blade is used in a closer style of cutting with ample opportunity for cutting and stabbing in very small movements. Many arts do not use those big over arching type of cuts. Closing would NOT be the thing I would want to do with those styles.
    Me either.

    However, should you end up fighting in-close with someone from a style like that, it seems to me like "locking" their sword up as best you can and closing into a grapple would be your best bet, and it wouldn't be the obvious thing to do, like jumping back would be. If you're physically grabbing him and sticking close, odds are he's too close to use his sword effectively (and his arms may very well be caught between himself and you) and the tables have suddenly turned in your favor.

    My throw came from my judo background and involved the tsuka, and I was surprised when he went over - I apologized because I had not meant to throw him, only see where the throw could go. The amazing thing about his throw was that it came from his aikido background and it was almost textbook in how it blasted me to earth, redirected my momentum, the whole bit. It was something like O soto gari.
    Sounds like an iriminage of some sort. Did he push your chin up and back while sweeping your legs out?

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    Default locks and empty hand ...

    Hi Bruce,
    Our style teaches quite a few locks and throws. It also advocates getting in close to your opponent. It does NOT advocate getting in close and grappling with your opponent. If you have a sword, you want to cut the other guy, not hug him. While we have quite a few different kumitachi that involve throws against a swordsman, they are not something you'd want to choose to use. As my instructor explained it to me, if you are unarmed against even a crappy swordsman, you would in all probability die. Of course, it's better to die attacking than to have him cut you down as you turn to run!

    Tyler wrote ...
    However, should you end up fighting in-close with someone from a style like that, it seems to me like "locking" their sword up as best you can and closing into a grapple would be your best bet, and it wouldn't be the obvious thing to do, like jumping back would be.
    Locking up someone's sword is actually a lot harder than it sounds. Jumping backwards is never the correct thing to do in any JSA I've ever heard of. Most schools that I am at least a little familiar with incorporate a circular movement which means that if someone tried to close, you would attempt to sidestep around him to be able to cut.

    Just the way I understand things, it may or may not be the others see it.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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    X-San

    "Easier to do-grab the shaft"

    That's all there is too it huh?

    Dude, I suppose its foolish of me to even ask if you have ever actually tried to "grab the shaft" on a yari thrust??

    No doubt you have, otherwise you would not be suggesting something you haven't throughly tested yourself.

    Right??

    Or is this just more of your "shaft grabbing" in general.


    Chris Thomas

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    Originally posted by X-san
    E
    If you're physically grabbing him and sticking close, odds are he's too close to use his sword effectively (and his arms may very well be caught between himself and you) and the tables have suddenly turned in your favor.

    Sounds like an iriminage of some sort. Did he push your chin up and back while sweeping your legs out?
    If his arms are caught between himself and you, and he holds on to his sword, it means that there is a sword between you. Do that sound remotely healthy, for anyone?

    The breaking of balance is very different in osotogari versus iriminage. At least it was ten years ago when I "tussled and rassled" with those concepts in aikido and judo. Luckily, I understood it was better to pick up a stick of some sort, than to lurk around unarmed and bruised in a sweaty and torn pyjamas.
    Roar Ulvestad

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