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Thread: The value of chanbara

  1. #31
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    Default B-dang!

    Nothing wrong with bringing down foam weapons to the dojo, it's the clots that use them in chambara that bring the whole thing into disrepute.

    Seriously though, Chris, our teacher, brought down a couple of fukuro shinai once which aren't exactly the same as the foam weapons. We did some useful reactions training and how not to get caught up in repetitive tit-for-tat exchange of blows. Also we didn't of course have to put any armor on.

    So IMHO, soft weapons do have a limited use in the dojo provided they are given the same respect as shinken, iaito and bokuto i.e. they should be thought of as real bladed weapons.

    Andy Watson

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    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  2. #32
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    Default fukuro shinai and foam

    I've used both and fukuro shinai are an entirely different beast than the chambara boffers. There simply isn't enough mass behind the foam boffers to be able to do realistic sword movements. I think the fukuro shinai are excellent training tools, they offer a reasonable weight and are relatively painful to get hit with.

    Shinai good.
    Boffers bad.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
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  3. #33
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    Default

    As my old teacher used to say "toy swords make toy swordsmen"

  4. #34
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    Default

    Originally posted by TimothyKleinert
    I disagree that danger is an essential element in training tools. I actually see it as the exact opposite. I think training tools have always sought to replicate reality as closely as they can, as safely as they can. The ultimate training tool would feel & act exactly like a shinken, but would somehow carry no threat of injury (I know that's not really possible).
    Timothy,

    I would disagree that "training tools have always sought to replicate reality as closely as they can, as safely as they can". Training tools such as the bokuto don't cut, but they hurt and they might kill you. A bokuto offers a very "real" sense of danger...after you have been hit with one a couple of times.

    The problem with training tools that do not offer an element of danger is that it is very near impossible to learn respect for your opponents weapon if you do not fear it. If you don't fear it you are very likely to make a sacrifice in ordet to "get" your opponent. The problem with this is that in Japanese swordsmanship you can not afford to make a sacrifice. You need to make a "clean" kill. A "sacrifice" means you are maimed and the next guy will probably kill you or you are killed out-right and the move you intended to follow your sacrifice never happens.

    If you are practicing in such away that you can't "get hurt" then you are (as my teacher puts it) "learning to dance". In other words you are not learing how to use the weapon "against" another person, you are learning how to use the weapon "with" another person.
    There is a very big difference between the two.

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  5. #35
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    Talking When's the party?

    Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto
    Scott,
    Perhaps the reason "Bob" ignores the tip is because he was once hit in the forehead with the tip of a bokken and it created a mental block that is too painful for him to deal with emotionally.
    I had a hunch that was the "Bob" that you were referring to

    Originally posted by chrismoses
    Now, at this summer's All Seattle (or at least MJER/Shinto-Ryu/Neil Yamamoto/David Pan/maybe some other folks if they sweet-talk me) tameshigiri-pizza-beer-n-BBQ fest, I think we NEED to get our hands on a few of these things for the post beer part of the festivities. Aw yeah.
    So when's the party?

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    If you don't fear it you are very likely to make a sacrifice in ordet to "get" your opponent. The problem with this is that in Japanese swordsmanship you can not afford to make a sacrifice. You need to make a "clean" kill.
    Hi Scott,

    So, what role, if any, does "sutemi" play in an iai art?

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  6. #36
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    Default

    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi


    Well, I have always considered Iaido to be of great use, yet the vast majority of Iaidoka are using an unsharpened aluminum "sword" to cut thin air at a safe distance from other Iaidoka in their dojo.


    Brian,

    Sorry if I sound blunt...but I am blunt. Your argument holds no water. There is an ENORMOUS difference between a tool that is intended for solo practice, and a tool that is intended for paired practice. The "practice" of iai with an aluminium iaito is safe the tool itself can be quite dangerous. If you don't believe the tool is dangerous, swing by the dojo sometime and let me hit you with one I guarantee you will change your opinion.

    A big part of iai (I am stealing from a converstaion I had with Ellis off list... he gets full credit for the following statement) is learning how to handle the "real" weapon.

    As for the iaito being a safe training tool... it is, but it was not developed with the intent of it being a "safe" tool for training. It was developed out of economic considerations. An iaito is much cheaper than a shinken. Safey is an "added benefit".

    Iaito are close enough to a shinken that they can be used in learing how to handle a sword. It is only because of them being so close to a shinken that they are useful training tools. The chanbara stick is so far removed from a shinken in all aspects that it is absolutely useless as a tool for learning swordsmanship.

    In regards to "the solo act that dare not speak its name" I think you are misquoting here. It was not kendoka it was actually a couple of Koryu folks and it is "the art that shall not be named"....
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: When's the party?

    Originally posted by DCPan
    I
    Hi Scott,

    So, what role, if any, does "sutemi" play in an iai art?

    Hi David. In answer to your question.....Uhhhhhhhhhhh.......

    Sutemi waza have the same place in an "iai art" (what a strange concept) as in any other "art". When you are so outclassed by your opponent you resort to all or NOTHING waza. Of course the understanding is that you probably get nothing and your opponent get's all....unless you get lucky.

    But in my post I am not referring to sutemi waza...at least not in how I define sutemi-waza (definition varies) I am referring to those instances where you allow yourself to get HIT in order to score a BETTER HIT e.g. letting my opponent hit me in the clavical so I can hit him in the head. Works great with the right gear.... But if I am squared off against somebody with a bokuto and I hit them in the clavical before they hit me in the head...well... they are not going to hit me in the head

    The bottomline is that in Japanese swordsmanship you CAN NOT afford to get hit and you need to practice in a way that reinforces this. The best way to learn this is of course to get hit and have it hurt..a lot
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  8. #38
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    Default

    ian drury passed away a couple a years ago, but the memory lives on:


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  9. #39
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    Default

    Ugh. We've got some chambara weapons in our dojo, the expensive kind too, not the cheap foam ones. I want to hide them all, or break them all and hide the pieces. They just seem to be a tempting distraction for the less mature members of the club, and there's precious little class time as it is. I've watched them "practice" with the chambara gear, and even if they start out trying to use realistic waza, in a matter of seconds they're just whacking away at each other. I picked up a few of them, and they're nothing like the weapons they represent, so I'm another one who votes for them going to the "useless" pile.
    Ric Flinn

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    Brian,

    Sorry if I sound blunt...but I am blunt. Your argument holds no water. There is an ENORMOUS difference between a tool that is intended for solo practice, and a tool that is intended for paired practice. The "practice" of iai with an aluminium iaito is safe the tool itself can be quite dangerous. If you don't believe the tool is dangerous, swing by the dojo sometime and let me hit you with one I guarantee you will change your opinion.

    A big part of iai (I am stealing from a converstaion I had with Ellis off list... he gets full credit for the following statement) is learning how to handle the "real" weapon.
    Scott's not blunt, he's dense, just ask Rick.

    Being dense myself, I agree whole-heartedly. I recently transitioned from iaito to shinken, and the biggest difference was not the edge's existance, but the sori. If I'd gone from my swordstore iaito to another swordstore iaito with my current sword's dimensions I would have had exactly the same issues. Yes there is something different about training with a live blade, but an iaito mimics the physical sensation of handling a shinken VERY well. Last class I was the only one using a shinken, and two other people drew blood (our Yudansha use a very short noto and the learning process is difficult, looks great when you do it right though).

    iaito good.
    boffer bad.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  11. #41
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    Thumbs up I agree with your agreement, Chris...

    The alloy iaito I was training with from Swordstore could cut through the first layer of skin if I just rested it on the inside of my forearm--tell me that couldn't hurt you, Brian!

    I have since switched to shinken, upping the stakes a bit more--but only after training with the iaito for the previous year as if it were a shinken. And although theoretically it should be no different when I use a bokken--it is.

    Iaito good.
    Shinken better.
    Boffer bad.

    I just know if I ever get a boffer in hand, I'll just go around bashing all my dojomates in the head until someone can wrest it out of my hands, at which point the fight is sure to escalate...so maybe it really IS the most dangerous weapon of the bunch.

    And keep me informed on the Seattle gettogethers. Between the Japanese sword stuff and the Western, Seattle is turning into Sword Party City...
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  12. #42
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    Default Re: I agree with your agreement, Chris...

    Originally posted by Diane Mirro
    Between the Japanese sword stuff and the Western, Seattle is turning into Sword Party City...
    What kind of western sword stuff?
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  13. #43
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    Default

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    In regards to "the solo act that dare not speak its name" I think you are misquoting here. It was not kendoka it was actually a couple of Koryu folks and it is "the art that shall not be named"....
    Actually, Scott, while the quote I gave may or may not have been made here on E-Budo, it is a statement I have heard more than once; and it is a tonque in cheek reference to a Victorian Era "Hygiene" manual for boys warning against masturbation, although I believe the exact text in that manual was "the solitary vice that dare not speak its name."
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 7th May 2004 at 07:45.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  14. #44
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    Default Re: I agree with your agreement, Chris...

    Originally posted by Diane Mirro
    The alloy iaito I was training with from Swordstore could cut through the first layer of skin if I just rested it on the inside of my forearm--tell me that couldn't hurt you, Brian!
    Okay. If you rest your Swordstore iaito on the inside of your forearm it can't hurt me.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 7th May 2004 at 07:49.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  15. #45
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    Default

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    If you don't believe the tool is dangerous, swing by the dojo sometime and let me hit you with one I guarantee you will change your opinion.
    No thanks; I've seen you wield a shinken and a bokken, and Mrs. Owens didn't raise any fools.

    However, I said "the vast majority of Iaidoka are using an unsharpened aluminum "sword" to cut thin air at a safe distance from other Iaidoka in their dojo" so your suggestion would seem to be based on a false assumption from the outset -- I never said misused iaito weren't dangerous.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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