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Thread: The value of chanbara

  1. #46
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    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
    Actually, Scott, while the quote I gave may or may not have been made here on E-Budo, it is a statement I have heard more than once; and it is a tonque in cheek reference to a Victorian Era "Hygiene" manual for boys warning against masturbation, although I believe the exact text in that manual was "the solitary vice that dare not speak its name."
    Ah...well then... so if the quote coming from a kendoka, it is somebody not knowing how to handle their tool, the older quote comes from somebody obviously not handling their tool
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi

    However, I said "the vast majority of Iaidoka are using an unsharpened aluminum "sword" to cut thin air at a safe distance from other Iaidoka in their dojo" so your suggestion would seem to be based on a false assumption from the outset -- I never said misused iaito weren't dangerous.
    But the discussion is about the tools used in practice, not the way one practices. The iaidoka practicing a safe distance away from other iaidoka in the dojo with an unsharpened aluminium iaito is what makes the practice "safe" to those around him/her. However the tool being used (an aluminium iaito)can be quite dangerous if weilded against someone. A chanbara stick on the other hand is not dangerous regardless of wether it is or is not weilded against someone.

    An iaito is used because it closely appoximates a sword. A chanbara stick is used because nobody gets hurt. Iaido is practiced solo so nobody gets hurt. Chanbara sticks have no place in the practice of Japanese swordsmanship because they don't even come close to approximating a sword.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  3. #48
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    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    But the discussion is about the tools used in practice, not the way one practices.
    Oh? From Page 1 of this thread:
    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    Well They are lots of fun...so they are a great value if you want to have fun.
    and
    Originally posted by Maro
    No good for technique but OK for a bit of fun every now and then....So, in conclusion, no benefit to sword but helpful to general awareness if supervised well
    From Page 2:
    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
    I think the value you might get out of their use depends on the seriousness of purpose you put into their use.
    From Page 3:
    Originally posted by Andy Watson
    Nothing wrong with bringing down foam weapons to the dojo, it's the clots that use them in chambara that bring the whole thing into disrepute....So IMHO, soft weapons do have a limited use in the dojo provided they are given the same respect as shinken, iaito and bokuto i.e. they should be thought of as real bladed weapons.
    and
    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
    However, I said "the vast majority of Iaidoka are using an unsharpened aluminum "sword" to cut thin air at a safe distance from other Iaidoka in their dojo"
    It seems to me that we were talking about the tools and the way they are used.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  4. #49
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    OK, this is stupid. We are talking about the use of a padded stick and safety issues, how a padded stick can help and hinder training. Get off the petty you said s***. Can you tell I’m in a bad mood this morning?

    My experience with the issue.
    Back in about 1986 or so, we were introduced to some padded sticks created by Bob Bragg, who’s a really decent guy. Does Defensive tactics up here in the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Center.

    I think the things were called “The Safety Stick” or somewhat. These were actually aimed at Philippine arts use, but were nicely padded and had nice handles, etc. Jon Frantzen and Bernie Lau got their hands on some and brought them into class. Bernie even gave the thing a plug in one of his videos. The idea was you could train more in a more realistic manner.

    What I found, my personal opinion anyway, was the things were useless after a bit of time in use.

    Good- The uke would attack full out. It brought out harder attacks by uke so more realistic attacks (if you choose to call bashing away with no regard for proper hasuji etc…) more realistic.

    Bad- After a few times hitting the nage, uke would just bash away uncontrolled and make it a game since he knew nage couldn’t really get hurt.

    Good – At first, nage would respond at first with more intent in their response, make better attempts at making the technique work. For a short period of time, this made people actually work on good form.

    Bad- After a few times, nage would start to respond in unrealistic ways since he knew he couldn’t really get hurt. Nage would allow themselves to be hit in order to just do the technique.

    Bad- Neil goes up and attacks someone with a rattan stick or a nightstick and bashes them across the arm or head. The response: “OWW! Whadda hit me for?”

    At first, I thought the things were a great idea. But after a bit, I discovered the things were useless since no matter what, it took away too much threat and both sides knew it. NO matter what the skill level, we all got slack using the things. They soon got a covering of dust sitting in the corner.

    Now, using shinai or fukuro shinai, that kept some pain/threat factor in place! Also allowed thrusts and locking using butt end. The chanbara sthicks(misspelled on purpose) take it down to the level of two kids beating on each other with Christmas wrapping paper tubes.

    The guys I know who do escrima and do more contact work use padded sticks. But not chanbara sticks. Why padded? Because repeated strikes in contact hurt and this allows you to practice longer. But they don’t like the chanbara toys because: THEY DON’T ALLOW YOU TO PRESENT A THREAT IN THE TECHNIQUE BECAUSE IT’S TOO SOFT AND SQOOSHY TO MAKE IMPACT PROPERLY!!!

    So, if you ain’t never used the things, you ain’t got a valid opinion on the matter. If you have used the things and train in a serious fashion, where the risk and threat of injury is there, you will not like the suckers since it completely dilutes the intent. So, if someone wants to play, great. Use the chanbara sticks and have fun whacking each other.

    But the things ain't got any valid use in any martial art that purports to teach effective use of a weapon or historical use of a weapon.

  5. #50
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    Default since you're getting all "quotey"

    The original question, "Do chanbara have anything of value to contribute to sword arts? Or is it just silly stuff for sword sissies?"

    Your comparison to an iaito is absurd. Using an iaito is of value and contributes to sword arts. Scott and others have spoken to this. Chambarra swords are silly stuff for sword sissies. Scott and others have spoken to this. Regardless of whether or not they have value as entertainment devices, they are silly and have little to no value to contribute to sword arts. Perhaps if you spent more time doing sword arts and not writing about sword arts, these things would be more clear to you. Tools are designed for specific uses, of course. Andy's comments were based on experience with fukuro shinai, a very different beast. As others have stated, these things are next to impossible to maintain a "shinken" mindset with. They evoke the silly in the best of us.

    "Originally posted by Scott Irey
    But the discussion is about the tools used in practice, not the way one practices."

    "Originally posted by YK
    It seems to me that we were talking about the tools and the way they are used."

    You are in total agreement with Scott's statement, the discussion is about the tools value WITHIN practice, not about methods for practice in general, or the tools and methods separately. There, clear as mud.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  6. #51
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    Default chanbara sticks

    Hell a wiffleball bat is better than those damn things.
    Ed Boyd

  7. #52
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    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi


    It seems to me that we were talking about the tools and the way they are used.
    Uhhhhhhh.....Brian that is not what I said. Go to the top of your reply and re-read the quote from me that you posted. It says "But the discussion is about the tools used in practice, not the way one practices." I don't know how to explain the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying. It is so obvious to me that I really don't think an in depth discussion about the difference would make it any clearer than saying "the way a tool is used" and "the way one practices" are two very different things.

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  8. #53
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    Default Re: Re: I agree with your agreement, Chris...

    Originally posted by DCPan
    What kind of western sword stuff?
    Don't play coy with me, David ...or is it possible you have not been following the "Cutting Party at Angus Trim's" thread in the Family Pub at (boo, hiss) http://www.swordforum.com ?
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  9. #54
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    Default Isn't a quote from "Princess Bride" applicable here?

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    Uhhhhhhh.....Brian that is not what I said. Go to the top of your reply and re-read the quote from me that you posted. It says "But the discussion is about the tools used in practice, not the way one practices." I don't know how to explain the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying. It is so obvious to me that I really don't think an in depth discussion about the difference would make it any clearer than saying "the way a tool is used" and "the way one practices" are two very different things.

    Regards,
    Something like, "You keep using that word. But I do not think it means what you think it means."

    And Brian, I must say--concerning your response to my post--your wit is really...reMARKable Your evasion of the real point of my statement was duly noted.

    It's Friday and I'm punchy, having just seen Kill Bill 2--take anything I say with a grain of sea salt.
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  10. #55
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    Talking Angus Trim

    Originally posted by Diane Mirro
    Don't play coy with me, David ...or is it possible you have not been following the "Cutting Party at Angus Trim's" thread in the Family Pub at (boo, hiss) http://www.swordforum.com ?
    Hi Dr. Mirro,

    Actually, I haven't been visiting swordforum much, mostly because that site has been banned at work....

    I knew that Angus Trim is around here east of me, but never got around to visiting the shop.

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by Diane Mirro
    And Brian, I must say--concerning your response to my post--your wit is really...reMARKable
    Well, I was trying to inject a bit of levity into the discussion as it seemed to be taking an acrimonious turn. I seem to have been unsuccessful.

    I thought that E-Budo was a discussion forum, but it seems that there is an "in group" here, and that if your opinions differ from those of the in group your posts are unwelcome. That being the case this will be my last post here.
    Originally posted by chrismoses
    Perhaps if you spent more time doing sword arts and not writing about sword arts, these things would be more clear to you.
    Maybe things are clear to me, and I just have a different viewpoint from you.

    You are writing here, too, Chris. Perhaps if you spent more time doing sword arts and not writing about sword arts you wouldn't come across as such a self-righteous ass.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  12. #57
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    Quote:
    "As others have stated, these things are next to impossible to maintain a "shinken" mindset with. They evoke the silly in the best of us."

    It seem like discussing these artifacts also evoke the silly in the best of us. Buy yourself some longer fuses, folks.
    Roar Ulvestad

  13. #58
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    Talking WOW

    At the risk of showing my own ignorance, I want to point out that there is "one" benefit of them soft chanbara sticks that people have YET to mention.

    That is, it is about the only implement that I know of that is soft enough for you to actually practice a full-swing through a training partner. The foam stick is more flexible than a fukuro shinai or regular shinai.

    At the same time, it has been written by many that what distingusih a koryu from gendai training is that sense of danger which is more paramount than the implement. It is not so much whether someone is wielding a shinken or bokken, but the idea that you must hold your own or get hurt in serious training.

    While the nature of the implement itself can HELP supply the sense of danger by its ability to harm, I also believe ultimately, it is the intensity that your partner can bring to the table which ultimately dictates the value that has been brought to the training.

    Is being less intense to your partner due to a "toy" implement any more excusable than being less intense to your partner because you know you can take him/her? I think that's the real question here

    FWIW
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  14. #59
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    I cant believe some of you have fallen out over the use of a foam sword...how childish but there again these are for children arent they??? Does that now mean the average age of the forum viewer is under 10?

    Correct answer to first post as follows:

    No, they are for nutcases who think they are in the movies, or for Xmas parties etc when we've had one too many beers cos they bend too easy and feel like you've been hit by a cushion.
    Whats next, a childs light sabre? (I want the red one... ) Does anyone think they would be any good for MA? I didn't think so....
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  15. #60
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    may I also suggest a change in protective armour..
    Actually I cant really believe someone makes this stuff, let alone some sad git buys it...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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