Mr. Itosu's wife?

[RobertW]

I have heard that apparantly Mr. Itosu's wife was quite the fighter. Is this true, and if so does anyone have any details?

[Gene Williams]

I knew a girl from Alabama named Mary Sue Ito. She was Hell with a broom or a dinner plate. She invented a deadly new art called "squeegie" ryu when her boyfriend pissed her off while she was mopping the kitchen one day.

[RobertW]

Actually after more research, I have found out that it actually Matsumura's wife who was the noted Martial artist. She apparantly bested many suitors. At any rate, if anyone has anything to add. Perhaps a story or two.

[CEB]

Just some old tale tale stuff, probably.

Old dojo story is that Seisan ( Matsumura Seisan not any of the other Seisan kata like Goju Uechi etc...) was the wife's kata. It's said that the part of the form that has the sequence of backhands rolled over into grabs (and/or nukite) with the other hand down at the hip was a technique that involved the Mrs. fighting wife a baby strapped to her back. The back hand is supporting or guarding the papoose. Again just an old dojo story robably nothing to it. Something I wonder anout is whether or not Seisan came to my boy's line through Kise's Shorinji Ryu or through direct line from Soken? I don't think Seisan is bid with lines coming from Itosu but I think it is done by Tomari stylist. But I'm just an old Judo player and not really up on all these karate stories.

There are more interesting stories regarding the Machimura women. One of which revolves around who really was the teacher of Hohan Soken. Some researcher types have tried to insinuate the Nabe Matsumura didn't necessarily exist or at least wasn't the teacher of Hohan Soken. Some think it was actually Soken's mother who was his teacher and direct descendant of the Matsumura family. The excuse given by some was that his karate may not have bene given as much credence if it came from a woman. I don't know anything about that stuff but it makes for some fun dojo gossip. My take on it is that someone was Soken's teacher he said it was Nabe Matsumura so let it be at that. What is more important, precise historical accounts of the history of an old boxing method or inspiring legends that feed the spirit. I would think learning the line from Mom would be more awe inspiring. I guess it depends on the patriarchal nature of the Ryukyu society.

[Joseph Svinth]

According to Richard Kim, writing in Weaponless Warriors, 1974, pp. 32-37, around 1820, the wife of the Okinawan karate master Matsumura Sokon became known as one of the finest karate practitioners in the Ryukyus. As Mrs. Matsumura could reportedly lift a 60-kilo bag of rice with one hand, the reputation may have been deserved. On the other hand, it could be modern myth. For one thing, Matsumura Sokon was born ca. 1805. Since Asian men typically marry younger women, this means Mrs. Matsumura was likely no more than ten years old in 1820. For another, Okinawans usually associate female wrestling with prostitutes rather than the wives and daughters of aristocrats. Furthermore, left to their own devices, most Okinawan women take up dancing rather than karate or sumo. Finally, Nagamine Shoshin did not publish the stories upon which Kim based his accounts until June 1952, which was more than a half century after Matsumura’s death. So perhaps some exaggeration crept in over time. Either that, or the story is part of a Ryukyuan theatrical tradition.

[Roderick Titan]

Another connection to karate that Matsumura's wife supposedly had, was that she was the granddaughter of KoShoKun (Kusanku). Supposedly the kata Kusanku Mei (Mei meaning female in Chinese) was from her as she learned it from her Grandfather, Kusanku. She taught Unyu (Sokon) this form and it is the Kusanku many Matsumura Seito stylists learn.

The story is that she was pretty enough, but would not marry just any punk. Being a fairly "robust" girl of good fighting and royal lineage, she required a husband who was mentally and physically worthy to claim her. She set up a challenge and said she would marry the man that could win her heart and best her in combat. Not many took up the challenge. Fighting a woman was, first of all, not honorable, and like it was detailed earlier she was pretty intimidating physically. It was Chotoku Kyan who witnessed her lifting a 60 kilo bag of rice with one hand while sweeping under it with the other. Pretty credible witness.

The story goes that a few suitors did take up her challenge, but none were worthy. She was an excellent wrestler and karate-ka in her own right. She waxed they a$$e$! Still they would try because she was from a rich family with a great reputation. Machimura found out about this, and thought "hey that's my kinda' woman, why hasn't anyone swooped her up"? She approved of Matsumura's shizoku's background for sure, but he would still need to prove himself physically. He challenged her and quickly defeated her by punching her in the breast!

She relented and they were promptly married. Who knows how much her personal and familial knowledge of the Okinawan/Chinese fighting arts contributed to Shuri Te? Who cares? If it works for a girl it's gotta work for a guy. Ask the Wing Chun and White Crane Chuan Fa types.

The child holding thing in Seisan is actually, supposedly, after the x-block strike, when the hands come to your sides. The follow-up reverse ridge-hand to an eye strike (snake hand) where your opposite arm seems to be performing a low openhand strike to the groin (behind you) is the baby carrying tech, modified. Originally, according to my sensei, this was from Mei-san's version where the lower strike was originally a cupped hand that mimicked supporting a baby's bottom (on your back) while striking with the other hand.

That is my Mrs. Matsumura HIStory. Hope you enjoyed it!

[Roderick Titan]

Robert- I think you meant Machimura's, not Itosu's, wife.

[hobbitbob]

Hmmm...sounds like my kinda woman!

[CEB]

So she was Chinese. That makes sense. In 1997 a group of us went to Okinawa, not me we had a child due about that time.

But When the guys came back they talked about seeing some armor from Shuri Castle and they commented that it looked like it was made for men close to our height. We all know how tall Okinawians are today so we concluded the soldiers who wore the stuff must have been Chinese. Maybe this is why the Mrs. was so big and strong.

[Shikiyanaka]

There was a German anthropologist or so named Albrecht Wirth:

In:
Die Erschließung Japans. Erinnerungen des Admirals Perry von der Fahrt der amerikanischen Flotte 1853/54. By Albrecht Wirth und Adolf Dirr (Ill.). Bibliothek denkwürdiger Reisen, Vol. 2. Gutenberg, Hamburg 1910. 375 p.

he wrote as a footnote:

S. 103: "Anderseits hat eine Expedition, die von Philadelphia ausging, in einer Höhle von Oshima, der nördlichsten Liukiu-Insel, hunderte von Skeletten gefunden, deren Träger im Durchschnitt 1, 95 Meter groß gewesen sein müssen. Der Exkönig der Liukiu erzählte mir selbst von einer Überlieferung, der zufolge einst Auswandererscharen von Luzon kamen."

p. 103: "On the other hand, an expedition, starting from Philadelphia, in a cave in Oshima, the northernmost Liukiu-island, found hundrets of skeletons, whose bearers must have been 1, 95 meters tall at the average. The ex-king of Liukiu told me personally about a historical tradition, wherby once cohorts of emigrants came from Luzon."

If she was the daughter of Kushanku, who came to Okinawa in 1755/56/ or 57, there are two things I would suppose:
- he took her from China and left her in Okinawa (Hmmm).
- Kushanku got a girlfriend while on Okinawa, and she was their child.

Matsumura is said to have been born in 1809 or 1805. So when she was Kushanku's daughter, she would have been rather old when marrying Matsumura.
This gives one more possibility, that she was not his daughter, but maybe granddaughter or something, if any.

However, this all sounds a little absurd. Hohan Soken himself stated, that some just applied the names of certain famous peolple of Ryûkyû on their kata. Being not ment as any offense, it is always good to apply the argumentation of a person on himself.

Richard Kim's stories are interesting and give some good hints, but I would take it rather than some mix-up of truth and fantasy than the truth itself.

Since Asian men typically marry younger women...

So asian women typically are willing to marry older men! I shall go there; this increases the chance of successfully reproducing my genes!
Oh, I am stupid again... better get back to work...

[Roderick Titan]

Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
T



If she was the daughter of Kushanku, who came to Okinawa in 1755/56/ or 57, there are two things I would suppose:
- he took her from China and left her in Okinawa (Hmmm).
- Kushanku got a girlfriend while on Okinawa, and she was their child.

Matsumura is said to have been born in 1809 or 1805. So when she was Kushanku's daughter, she would have been rather old when marrying Matsumura.
This gives one more possibility, that she was not his daughter, but maybe granddaughter or something, if any.

However, this all sounds a little absurd. Hohan Soken himself stated, that some just applied the names of certain famous peolple of Ryûkyû on their kata. Being not ment as any offense, it is always good to apply the argumentation of a person on himself.

Richard Kim's stories are interesting and give some good hints, but I would take it rather than some mix-up of truth and fantasy than the truth itself.


So asian women typically are willing to marry older men! I shall go there; this increases the chance of successfully reproducing my genes!
Oh, I am stupid again... better get back to work...

Who said you were stupid---again. I didn't say daughter I said granddaughter. So logic would dictate that she was at least half Chinese. In other words Kusanku married an Okinawan woman who in turn, had a child who was the parent of Tsurusan (Mastumura's wife). She was probably at least 1/4 Chinese.

No fantasy. That is the Machimura's geneology as known on Okinawa, by some.

That quote about asian men wanting to marry younger women, is probably pretty universal amongst all guys, across the globe. Mrs. Matsumura may have been older than Sokon, but not by many years. The timeline makes perfect sense.

As for Richard Kim, well, he was a great karate-ka, but did he do Shorinji Ryu or a more modern gendai system related to some of Kyan's karate? Is he considered the foremost authority on Matsumura family history? Wouldn't a Matsumura be a more credible source?

Since he did study under Kyan I would suspect that much of his history of Shuri Te probably came from Master Chan Migwa (Kyan Chotoku). There is probably a lot of fiction intermingled with truth in the case of pre-Meiji Okinawan martial arts history, whatever the source(s).

People are so ready to believe many things that cannot be validated historically. Take the great religious texts for example. Can all those things be thoroughly validated? Nope, but folks still seem to want to believe those facts mixed with myth in a quick second. Selective skepticism, when it backs up wants and opinions, seems to be rampant.

Does anyone have anymore stories about Machimura's wife?

[Shikiyanaka]

JUST FOR FUN. The vice envoy of the Sappôshi, with which Kûsankû came to Okinawa, was Shū Kō (Shū Huang) 周煌. He made a narrative of the journey, but did not mention Kûsankûs marriage.

Instead he gave an account of how the Okinawans - the "foremost authorities" on their own history - describe their own origin (my rough translation):

„The islanders say, they descend from a man and a woman, which had five children. The oldest, Téen-Sun [i] (Origin of Heaven), was the first regent of the nation, under him the second son was minister, and the third war the composer of law. The oldest daughter maried the Gof of Heaven. the other daughter the God of the seas. Téen-Sun and his dynasty then reigned 17 802 years; then the Shunteen [ii] came on the throne, a branch of the now reigning family in Japan. This happened around 1200, when the Ming dynasty arose in China. Three kings reigned in Liukiu; one ‚king of the middle hill', one ‚king of the southern hill’ and a third ‚king of the northern hill’. All were tributary to the Son of Heaven [i.e. the chinese Emperor]. Finally the former mentioned king became lord of des whole island kingdom, but he however always stayed tributary to the Chinese.“

[i] = Tenson.
[ii] = Shunten, the son of Minamoto Tametomo.

Surely a mix of truth and fantasy..

I simply believe that from their history Okinawans are masters in refusing, concealing and obscuring informations. Although they are not able to completely refuse, because the "invaders" were and are so obtrusive, they will disguise as much as possible. They did it with Basil Hall, with Gutzlaff, with Perry and with any other following them. That is the point. Whatever information you think you have been taught by an authority... handle with care.

[CEB]

What is more important, an accurate historical account of some old Asian island boxing method or a fantastic legend that feeds the fighting spirit of its practitioners.

Maybe this idea along with some of the ideals of Confucianism are what the Okinawian obtained from the Chinese.

[Shikiyanaka]

What is more important, an accurate historical account of some old Asian island boxing method or a fantastic legend that feeds the fighting spirit of its practitioners.

„It is the question if not the best historical works are those, in which a little of the exaggeration of the poetic narration is applied in an insightful way.“
Dr. Horst Bohr; „Histoerchen“; 1975

[Shikiyanaka]

I use to love all that stories and everything about Ryûkyû, but ... aaargh... today I am a little annoyed by euphemistic views, so I temporarily need to turn the tables for now: [(begin #+~`§%-mode)]

So, what does anyone really know about a person named Matsumura???

He was bodyguard to Kings of Ryûkyû? Sounds good, but did you ever see a picture of a Ryûkyû king? I saw one of Shô Tai... man was he ugly...

What did the bodyguard and bull-riding hero Matsumura do when Japanese policemen entered Shuri castle and took the king hostage to Japan? Of course, he did not use his Jigen-ryû, because he had no sword. Was he actually there or was he training at the beach, impressing some girls? Did he comply and soon died of the shame, like Hama Higa Pechin (Matsu Higa no Bôjutsu) did?

Matsumura was noble? 2/3 of Okinawa inhabitants belonged to the "nobles," i.e. spies, streetcops, palanquin bearers, trumpeters, cooks, tuft-flutterers, etc.!

Why are there no written records? Because they were all illiterate.

Why do people start to use pseudo-Ryûkyûan language and what is the difference between Ôkan, Wankan, and Ukwan?

Why don't anyone make a Walt Disney picture about Okinawa karate?

Why are there no fotos? Because:

Wirth, 1910: "Moreover I would like to draw the attention especially on an element, that directly attract attention notably on Okinawa: the folks are abysmally ill-favored.

[(end #+~`§%-mode)]