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Thread: A Historical Question Concerning Kano Sensei

  1. #1
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Thumbs up A Historical Question Concerning Kano Sensei

    I hope someone can answer this. I was talking to a judo friend of my and this came up in my mind post-conversation.

    OK Kano Sensei created a fine art he called Judo, for all rights and purposes, from different arts. Some of those arts, it is my understanding are from battlefield grappling arts- for general purposes. That is more specifically you grab the armor of the enemy and throw. These arts indepentant where effective as themselves. Now Kano Sensei combined several or more of these arts, with the same intention of grabbing clothing and throwing. Why did he feel the need to combine effective grappling arts to make an effective art? I understand he modified them? If this is true why, if the arts where effective themselves.

    I hope this is clear, it a tough question to get precise. Basically why re-invent the wheel per se. Did he see flaws in these arts where he could improve, probably, but, why did he create a similar art that consisted of grabbing and throw when the arts he took from where already very effective, why didn't he just improve on that one art technically. This is outside of what I heard that he wanted to preserve the founding arts.

    I know Judo defeated many jujutsu arts where any of these arts a part of Judo and where these arts randomly picked or selected?

    In regards,

  2. #2
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Thumbs up This might help.

    Don't get me wrong Judo is a fine art and Kano was a fine man.

    I can't get my mind around the combining arts from already effective proven arts. I mean that is a big risk to do, and alot is at stake, and alot of work to combine arts and then have to prove it as he did. Why not improve or adapt the best existing art of them all and skip all the head aches, and go with a sure thing?

    In sincere regards,

  3. #3
    MarkF Guest

    Default Re: A Historical Question Concerning Kano Sensei

    Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
    I hope someone can answer this. I was talking to a judo friend of my and this came up in my mind post-conversation.

    OK Kano Sensei created a fine art he called Judo, for all rights and purposes, from different arts. Some of those arts, it is my understanding are from battlefield grappling arts- for general purposes. That is more specifically you grab the armor of the enemy and throw. These arts indepentant where effective as themselves. Now Kano Sensei combined several or more of these arts, with the same intention of grabbing clothing and throwing. Why did he feel the need to combine effective grappling arts to make an effective art? I understand he modified them? If this is true why, if the arts where effective themselves.

    I hope this is clear, it a tough question to get precise. Basically why re-invent the wheel per se. Did he see flaws in these arts where he could improve, probably, but, why did he create a similar art that consisted of grabbing and throw when the arts he took from where already very effective, why didn't he just improve on that one art technically. This is outside of what I heard that he wanted to preserve the founding arts.

    I know Judo defeated many jujutsu arts where any of these arts a part of Judo and where these arts randomly picked or selected?

    In regards,

    Jerry,
    I don't think anyone doubts your sincerity in asking, and while most know the answers, there are many, depending on the question[s] you want answered.

    First, it must be understood that there is a reason for calling his idea of jujutsu, judo, or more precisely, Kodokan Judo. As he was on to something different from most schools of jujutsu of the day, he decided to use the term "judo" instead of jujutsu, to separate it from other schools.

    It wasn't the first time the term, or the Kanji for, Judo was used. Indeed, the older school of what became to be called "Kito-ryu," an older 18th century school, "Jikishin-ryu" also used the term. As Kano's judo was to use randori for the practical application of jujutsu, so did Jikishi-ryu and is the reason he choose judo over jujutsu. Jikishin-ryu Judo probably used alternate pronunciations for judo, such as Jiu no michi, or yawara no michi, but the kanji are identical. Jikishin-ryu, and later in other jujutsu schools, the practice of ran, or randori, was the principal manner of training.

    You are correct about one part of judo kata, in that it was originally designed to be done in armor. It was changed just enough so as to do the technique of the kata without the armor, and it is the oldest, and one of the superior kata of judo (superior meaning a higher level in this case). You can find it in Kodokan Judo, or in many, many books on kata, but it is known as Koshiki no kata, sometimes called, kito-ryu no kata, as well.

    While many of the waza of judo was redesigned, there was good reason for it. Kano, being the first academic to actually study the jujutsu techniques of the three schools in which he had earned license, and later to take them apart, studying better ways for doing them. He believed that, if done correctly, anyone could do them and do them safely while retaining the practical use of each waza. As most jujutsu schools of that era were regarded as a loathsome activity by society, Kano wanted it to become, not only acceptable, but available to any who wanted to study them. Sporting contests were never part of the Judo that Kano developed, but there were some things he thought he could change, and others he simply tosses aside, as he detested some acts of the jujutsu schools.

    Many dojo of the day, not having a way to test their skills, did some kind of "dojo storming." These challenges were fine, but they also were dangerous, and one of his goals was to make these techniques safer to practice while relegating others to their study in kata only, some, done mainly by the women, were also practiced solo.

    Another problem he found with the throwing waza, was that this was taught mainly to the biggest and strongest, without regard to safety of the practitioner, also caused injury and even death in the dojo challenges. These were called taryu jiai. He found, logically, that not only could they be done safely, that if done with the correct technique, they could be accomplished with a minimum of effort with maximum results. He found that by off-balancing an opponent or attacker, and entering just so, that the attacker would actually be throwing himself. The direction and strength was only directed by tori (taker), and when the balance was broken in the same direction of the intent, uke (receiver) would be redirected. It isn't only in throwing, but it is easiest to demonstrate with throwing waza.

    Examples are many, but many jujutsu participants just spread their legs and hefted the other man over. Placing the feet in close proximity to one another, or to take a foot off the ground to throw, was probably seen with a lot of skepticism.

    Other problems Kano saw in jujutsu, was that some, with no outlet to test their technique, became no more than hoodlums, starting fights, or committing crimes, just to test technique on the unsuspecting. The other thing he detested, was "jumping in" of students. As in gangs today, new students were beaten, sometimes severely, before they became students, and there would be none of that in Kodokan Judo. Penalties were held against judoka who used their judo in dangerous ways, overusing self defense could get you a six month suspension from all Kodokan activity. One of Kano's first students, Yoshitsugu Yamashita, along with a friend, were accosted, and they were jailed for a time (a few days, perhaps, I don't think anyone knows precisely), and when released, Yamashita was banned from any contact or use of Kodokan technique for six months, and is the reason I mentioned that amount of time. Those given direct Hansoku Make in shiai today, are sometimes banned, also. It does happen on occasion.


    The grappling arts were rarely battlefield arts, in reality, but there were some, as you said, practiced when caught or when a weapon was lost in close contact. The main weapon, however, was a sword, and for many they were to protect the retainer from an attack. Bushido were often peasants, so as far as battlefiend arts, it is doubtful any tai jutsu was used, but there was some probably, but it doesn't really relate to the time of the founding of Judo and other jujutsu styles called "new." Some were, some weren't. It just wasn't a good day, as far as most in society thought, to be involved in fighting arts.

    Dr. Kano did see the necessity in retaining some of these arts thus the kata. But most of the jujutsu of that day, was basically wrestling, testing the fighting style in challenge matches or taryu jiai. Lose, you "steal" the technique which beat you, and take it back to your own dojo, while licking your wounds. Taryu jiai does go back a long way, so to say matches, or shiai didn't exist in the koryu arts, is just plain wrong, it did. What did they do when there was no fighting, no war, no glory? In the old days, probably sumo, but also challenges against each other was common. Judo, does contain weapons, or defense against them, in the kata. The oldest was the sword, but in reality, while it is possible, it probably isn't a good idea, unless you have no choice. A chance is all anyone has in such a situation, and even knowing something is better than nothing. But, there are a couple of kata where weapons are used.

    In actuality, they didn't know whether techniques were effective or not without injury. Kano wanted everyone to be able to train, at full speed, and be able to come back the next time with little or no real injury. For randori, some techniques were not allowed. But it was the first, and remains today, the only style in which this still holds true. Most have some type of training, either calling it randori, or being similar. Agressive kata practice is pretty widely done, if it can be done safely. As the syllabus was built, arm or wrist twisting holds were limited to the elbow joint, though this isn't one-hundred percent in all waza. There are hand and finger methods, and wrist techniques with throws attached are also practiced today. Choking also was allowed, as long as uke could signal that he could not continue and that tori would immediately release him. This wasn't always so of the Jujutsu schools "Of that time." There were others doing the same thing around the same time, one being Sokaku Takeda with his idea of aikijujutsu, though it wasn't known as that for some time. Falling without injury was also taught for the first time as a system.

    So while Kano indeed used jujutsu techniques of other schools, they were changed so much as to be called a new style of jujutsu, as that is what most called it, sometimes Kano-ryu or Kodokan ryu. The word Kodokan isn't used by Judoka alone, there is at least one ryu in Japan which calls itself "Kodokan," but the kanji for "Ko" has another meaning from that of Kodokan Judo.


    That is all I can do off the top of my head, but ohers will surely add to it and correct me where I am wrong. The basic fact of it, is to use the techniques of jujutsu in a safe manner while still retaining its dangerous nature. Don't forget, also, that back then, the ground the fell on was little more than hard dirt, only sometimes covered with straw tatami, which could just as easly be some straw on the floor with canvass over it. So as safe as it was, as safe as it looks today (ask any judoka over time about injuries. This did not eliminate them, only reduced them to an acceptable level). But even with the softest mats, injuries of overuse, mainly in the shoulders, hips and knees, and the hands.

    It also went beyond the dojo, it was jujutsu one learned to find "his way along the path." It also offered a way for other styles to continue, and judo was taught openly, perhaps not as today, but sometimes the secrets of some things are hidden in plain site.

    Hope that helps some.


    Mark
    Last edited by MarkF; 16th May 2004 at 13:33.

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    Default Re: This might help.

    Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
    I can't get my mind around the combining arts from already effective proven arts. I mean that is a big risk to do, and alot is at stake, and alot of work to combine arts and then have to prove it as he did. Why not improve or adapt the best existing art of them all and skip all the head aches, and go with a sure thing?
    Well, in part, that's what he did - Tenshin Shinyo ryu, was, as I understand it, the dominant jujutsu style of the time, and formed most of the basis for Kodokan judo (although how much may be arguable).

    But, more importantly, Kano incorporated contemporary ideas of physical culture, just starting be explored at the time - ultimately culminating in the modern Olympic movement. Kano was a member of the International Olympic Comittee and accompanied the first Japanese athletes (a runner and a swimmer?) to the Olympic Games.

    You need to remember that what we now think of as physical fitness was not very common even 100 years ago. To say that Kano invented a new art is incorrect; better to say that he modernized older jujutsu, including the ideas of physical culture not previously used in training.

    Kano was also involved in educational; he was involved in reforming Japanese education - these reforms also filtered into Kodokan judo.
    Peter Claussen

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    I can't get my mind around the combining arts from already effective proven arts.
    Even in Jûjutsu history it has often been seen that intelligent persons studied one or more system(s), did there own research on everything practical and theoretical they could get their hands on, and finally developed something which was a "new" or at least a style unique in some characteristics.

    Examples in Jûjutsu are given by the stories of Akiyama and the three rônins who came across Chin Genpin (these are about possible Chinese influences discussed until today). In all clearly Japanese Koryû there seems to have been such things, just one more example being Muso Gonnosuke and many many others who recognized there is something missing or not fitting to some circumstances, be it personal or demographic. There were always catalysts lending to some change/development.

    As a matter of principle I think it is possible to recognize and to view Kano's doing exactly as it has been done in the Koryû. However, there are a few things which in the development of Kôdôkan Jûdô are not the same as in the Koryû (as far as I know).
    One part missing is the "divine inspiration" often told of in connection with the development of a style. Another one of course is the change in society happened in Meiji era and after. Apart from that, IMHO Kano did exactly as it has been done in the development of Koryû;

    - learning one or more styles in some degree.
    - research every possible field of that matter.
    - adapt to circumstances of the actual era.
    - proof it is working.
    - fine tuning with the advice of other experts
    ...

    Although it is nothing new, I like T. Lindsay's translation of an essay by J. Kano, which was read on April 18th, 1888, and printed in the TASJ in Volume XVI, 1889. The correct title of the essay is: Jiujutsu (柔術). The old Samurai art of Fighting without weapons.

    As Kano seems to have obviously been confronted with the same questions as arise today, and as it contains many explanations why what has been done by Kano, this is good a reading.

    Regards
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

  6. #6
    MarkF Guest

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    I think you are correct, Peter, I recall it being two athletes, but that far back it was more likely to be the "European International Games" when Kano did bring the two. It was the Olympics, but it was really only relatively local countries involved, but it had to start somewhere. Kano was made a member of the IOC in 1909, but was not a member when he was on the mission of bringing the Games to Japan. Judo was the last thing he wanted to be one of the "games" but spreading the word was important enough to schedule Judo as a demonstration, but not as one of the sporting activities of the games. His dreams were more likely centered on bringing together people all over the world together, in sports, but I doubt he cared whether or not judo was part of the Olympics, and he also stated it would not be he who did so.

    There is that comment in Judo Kyohan made by Yokoyama in which he relates how much more physically able the "newer" judoka were, stating that the founders were "small in stature." He went on to state: "The original judo players were really great men. Imagine how much greater they may have been if they were bigger and stronger." I don't have the time right now to get the exact quote, but it is interesting that it is the one thing the older generation disliked, even detested, about the new generation of judoka who took advantage of their newer physical abilities. This wasn't just something noticed after WWII, but even entering the 1910s it was a subject of interest.

    Because of that, it is a wonder Kano was able to find even those two to compete, but you're right, Kano is remembered as the "Father of Japanese Sports" Physical Education, as well as Judo, and it obviously did make it into judo. As meticulous as he was, it really didn't occur to him that people wanted to see judo in that kind of venue. He understated his successes so much that even as he was so much more international than most, he still never considered judo in that light.


    Mark

  7. #7
    MarkF Guest

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    Even in Jûjutsu history it has often been seen that intelligent persons studied one or more system(s), did there own research on everything practical and theoretical they could get their hands on, and finally developed something which was a "new" or at least a style unique in some characteristics.
    Of course you are right, I just think Prof. Kano went much further than anyone else, scientific/mathematical changes were made wholesale, so to speak. He searched for the advantages in everything, seeking to modernize to a point where, for example, the dojo arashi, in his way, would use craftiness instead of true combat (there was none, so direct it into something else), he created symbolic combat instead. The budo world at the time was certainly in great need of something different, but he also helped, or offered a hand up to preserve other forms of jujutsu, as well, but yes, they all have evolved in many ways. Very few were able to maintain the original style, but some did, such as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, though this is mainly a sword art, it does have a style of jujutsu within its syllabus, as well. Kashima shinryu is a better example, takeuchi ryu was another, but these are the exceptions, and not the rule.

    My point was only that, aside from the physical aspect, Kano did much to redirect the budo world into a new time, as well as what he did for physical education in Japan. He was able to see things in an academic light, using logic and reasoning, as well, as scientific principles in changing what was for what was to be.

    While much of the syllabus certainly did come from Tenshin shin'yo ryu, and kito ryu, I don't think this was a conscious effort. He just used whatever he found that was employable, and whether or not it came mostly from one than from another was simply chance, though he may have started there, and it just came to be.

    I like the similarities in what Kano was doing compared to Sokaky Takeda did, even though Takeda had different reasons. But if one had to compare changes, it was these two who, at the very least, made similar changes. They were from the same time, nearly the same age, so it wasn't only Kano, but that was the question.

    Why combine arts/technique? Simple. That was the time proven way of even the oldest of koryu, replace the ineffective with the effective, so in that, that wasn't the "big plan." That all ready had occured from the time of the first Ryu. It was to offer a new age something which made it acceptable again, brought out a way of fighting that was mature and effective, without the inherent danger as was the case at the time. Kano was more than a great sensei, though he certainly was that, he looked for a way of bringing people together instead of forming class levels, his way was to be the way of anyone and everyone. No secrets kept, but then not everyone finds all the answers, even now.


    Sorry for the run on sentences and ad naseum rant. I need to start using tags on those.


    Mark

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    From one of my favorite websites:

    "During the summer of 1912, Kano, Omori, and two runners (Tokyo Imperial University's Yahiko Mishima and Higher Normal College's Shizo Kanakuri) went to the Fifth Olympiad in Stockholm. Neither Mishima nor Kanakuri won any medals or races, but everyone agreed that it was pleasant to see the world. After the games, Omori and the two runners returned to Japan, while Kano traveled throughout Europe and North America to see how Europeans and Americans taught physical education."

    For the rest of the article, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/2004jcs/jcsart_svinth_0504.htm

  9. #9
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
    From one of my favorite websites:

    "During the summer of 1912, Kano, Omori, and two runners (Tokyo Imperial University's Yahiko Mishima and Higher Normal College's Shizo Kanakuri) went to the Fifth Olympiad in Stockholm. Neither Mishima nor Kanakuri won any medals or races, but everyone agreed that it was pleasant to see the world. After the games, Omori and the two runners returned to Japan, while Kano traveled throughout Europe and North America to see how Europeans and Americans taught physical education."

    For the rest of the article, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/2004jcs/jcsart_svinth_0504.htm
    Yeah, I like it too, and would have left it in my post if I thought anyone would read it.


    Mark

    PS: I've read that before, haven't I, Joe.

  10. #10
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Thumbs up

    I don't want to interupt the flow of the thread, so real quick thanks to everyone for the replys, I am reading them earnestly. Pls. keep them coming as I am learning alot.

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    Default philosophical difference

    Hi all,

    Having done both Kodokan judo and now koryu jujutsu, and studying some texts and history of my koryu, my opinion of Kano actually rose a lot higher. Kano was a university educator, and I think the greatest thing he did to martial arts was to try to instill in its study a more scientific, structured program. He opened up judo to any and all citizens of good standing, offered a structured training program and held lectures to discuss techniques, philosophy and methodology, as in a Western style educational setting. So that was one big difference.

    Another was that he envisioned judo as a national, and then an international sport, encompassing physical health, mental development and only secondarily self-defense, for the modern, post-Edo Japanese (and world citizen). That possibility could never be envisioned by any koryu jujutsu school because they were bound by regional boundaries, familial lineages, and feudal obligations. And as good as any koryu jujutsu school was, they had unique characteristics that were jealously guarded as opposed to other koryu jujutsu schools. You could have a koryu jj teacher hired to teach basic techniques to a metropolitan or national police or military force, but they were connected to what was ultimately a self-limiting ryu that differentiated itself from other ryu, and was proud of it.

    Kano envisioned judo to be a distillation of the best of all koryu jj, not another koryu jj. While it's well known that he studied three-odd koryu and based much of the curriculum on what he learned, he also did textbook studies of other jj schools and actively sought advice from other schools for their particular specialties. As one example, from my own school there are stories of Kano asking Kansai area Takeuchi-ryu sensei to help incorporate Takeuchi-ryu grappling methods (dislocations and chokes) in the judo newaza curriculum. Contributing to the advance of another ryu was anathema to most jujutsu teachers, but helping Kano was different. He was perceived later on as trying to create an umbrella organization that was trying to distill all the best of the koryu, not to advance the cause of only one or two. This was a revolutionary way of thinking.

    In addition, many of Kano's first disciples were accomplished in other koryu before joining the Kodokan, so they added their own techniques to judo. Saigo Shiro's (one of the great judo competitors of the early years) adoptive father was Saigo Tanomo (who figures in Daito-ryu lineages).

    I do think that pro-Kodokan literature (read: propaganda) overstresses the efficiency of judo techniques over koryu. By the time of the Kodokan, koryu jujutsu had developed a kind of shiai that approximated the randori shiai you see in judo dojo. And many koryu jj participated, fashioning new techniques or altering older ones to fit that style of competition. Kano did not revolutionize randori training as he focused on it and made it more scientific and effective in those shiai.

    If you're training for randori shiai, the best training system is what the Kodokan had for its young turks: lots of randori, break down the usable techniques into repetition exercises, and then break down the exercises into smaller, technical and physical drills. Don't even think of stressing too much kata that had to do with self defense or armed fighting, although it's there in judo. Just train like crazy and rely more on technique, physical stamina and experience in randori. It works. (But, of course, at a price.)

    Koryu jujutsu did receive a bad rep, partly because of the disorderly brawls that supposedly (and I say supposedly) some of its students were fond of instigating. But another reason for its decline was the overall disdain Japanese had of their own traditions circa the turn of the 20th Century. They were avidly snapping up anything Western as better than their own premodern culture. Noh actors became beggers, tea masters paupers, and jujutsu languished as the upper class enjoyed Western dancing at the Ritsumeikan, took up swimming and Western equestrian sports, and so on. No one wanted to do Japanese cultural stuff, least of all jujutsu.

    When the Japanese created a national military, after all, it did not ask former samurai to incorporated traditional methods of bujutsu or bugei. They sought advisors from Prussia, France and Great Britain, the reigning military powers of that time. (Interestingly, the division went along certain lines: Prussian influence was heavy in the Army, British in the Navy. When the Japanese defeated and sank a British battleship fleet in the Coral Sea in the early part of WWII, Japanese naval pilots flew over the spot of the sinking(I can't recall the name of the Battleship offhand) and dropped flowers over it because they felt they had defeated their teachers. As for the Prussian influence and how it affected Japanese Army attitudes, well, your conjecture is as good as mine.)

    Kano wanted to show that a Western style sport could be developed out of native Japanese roots, so he applied Western pedagogy to the development of the Kodokan curriculum. He incorporated any jujutsu method that he thought would work within its recast goals of physical and mental education, and he even studied Western boxing and wrestling to glean any ideas for techniques and organization.

    IMHO, the Japanese seem to do that very well: incorporate non-Japanese concepts, ideas and methodologies and then recast it by adding Japanese concepts. The Japanese Zero fighter plane, I read in a Smithsonian magazine years ago, was developed by an eccentric Japanese inventor who took apart all the best designs of Western fighter planes and then incorporated it into his somewhat radical new design. It was faster and more maneuverable than anything we Americans had for the first couple years of WWII, until Americans got hold of a Zero, took it apart, and then put our own aeronautics industry on a war footing. The Infinit and Lexus automobile lines did the same thing. When Infinitit first premiered their first models, one executive said the company took apart every European luxury car to find out what made them work well, and then tried to incorporate every good idea in their own cars, plus add value to their product by adding their own innovations. I think that's what happened in judo.

    In addition, the popularity of judo was in part due not just to its efficiency, but because of its Western style training curriculum, compared to the way the koryu jj were being taught, with kuden, esoterica, and rankings based on traditional menjo (licenses) controlled by a family or lineage of teachers. Thus, Kano never styled himself a "soke" or a "founder" of a new ryu; Kodokan judo wasn't a ryu, but a Way, a new sportive method that should be clear, open, and logical. Anyone could become a yudansha, and a high ranking one at that. You didn't have to be related to the Kano family or be adopted into it, and Kano never thought of himself as starting a family-based lineage ryu.

    The influence of Kano is still unmeasured. He spurred many jujutsu people to abandon their ryu and take up Kodokan judo. Others incorporated his training methods, including the methodology and white uwagi and other trappings because they made a lot of sense. Karate, kendo and aikido adopted his dan ranking system. This doesn't even cover his professional contributions as an educator and sponsor of amateur athletics in Japan. He lent an air of credibility and respectability because of his social station not just to judo, but secondarily to other traditional koryu that he encouraged and sponsored (including the Shindo Muso-ryu jo, aikido, karate and jujutsu schools).

    The systemization of judo is no small feat. I was talking to a Chinese tai chi teacher and he said one thing he envies about Japanese martial arts is that their organizations and styles all have a clear, unified ranking system, disciplined and clean uniforms, and a very clean-cut, orderly appearance and sense of purpose. The problem with Chinese styles, he said, has not much to do with techniques. He regarded (of course) Chinese techniques as superior or more advanced, but everything else about Chinese martial arts was a mess compared to the Japanese system.

    At that point, his wife chimed in, "Yeah, but the Communists came in and tried to unify everything, and they screwed it all up!"

    There has been discussion about Kano not creating many of his innovations out of thin air. If he was less creator than innovator or renovator, I think it is besides the point in the long run. He did put together from many disparate sources a unique system that influenced all the new budo and even the very nature and purpose of koryu budo in Japan.

    Wayne Muromoto

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    This is a great thread and I would like to thank all the contributors for some excellent reading.
    -- Budd Yuhasz

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    Default Re: philosophical difference

    Originally posted by wmuromoto
    Having done both Kodokan judo and now koryu jujutsu, and studying some texts and history of my koryu, my opinion of Kano actually rose a lot higher. Kano was a university educator, and I think the greatest thing he did to martial arts was to try to instill in its study a more scientific, structured program. He opened up judo to any and all citizens of good standing, offered a structured training program and held lectures to discuss techniques, philosophy and methodology, as in a Western style educational setting. So that was one big difference.
    Thanks for the great stuff.

    From what I've read, I'm getting the impression that the fundamental concept of judo is not ju but instead seiryoku zenyo - this is what I think of as Kano's main contribution.

    Is the application of seiryoku zenyo in judo (at least, in the Kano ideal, see http://www.judoinfo.com/seiryoku2.htm ) different from koryu jujutsu?
    Peter Claussen

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    Default Just a thought

    I just took a look at a picture of Kano following a link submitted in this thread, and he gave to me the impression that he had the one thing I most appreciate in teachers: he has the "grandfather-touch."

    While the father-type of teacher may be described by the responsibility to - at certain times - dress you down or "punish" you, the grandfather-type is much wiser... and often much more effective in teaching
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

  15. #15
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Another was that he envisioned judo as a national, and then an international sport, encompassing physical health, mental development and only secondarily self-defense, for the modern, post-Edo Japanese (and world citizen).


    Hi, Wayne,

    I don't know how I missed it, but with all due respect to you and the research you have done, I disagree with you on one, now rather minor, point.

    I don't think Kano cared, or rather, his goal wasn't to make Judo a sport. Certainly he did internationalize it but his motives with the shi-ni-ai were as you have said over the years, I just don't think he thought of judo in that way. Physical health was one reason, and everything else you say is true otherwise, IMO.

    The nationalization of Judo as Physical Education in the school system had at least as much to do with the goverment as it did Kano, but I believe Kano envisioned other activities, sports, be brought to Japan. In effect, as the Father of Japanese Sport, he also sought to internationalize Japan by creating a national Physical Education program, change some ways other styles of jujutsu were done, but it was never to replace them, it was to improve on them, and with the ability of an academic, it was and he stil remains, the only one to do so with a style[s] of budo. You are correct concerning the timing of this so I don't disagree with you, my only point is that Kano wasn't truly interested in making judo a sport.

    As the possibility of bringing the Olympics to Japan became more probable, he was asked if Judo would be included in the Olympic Games. At one point toward the end of his years, he answered the question with "...Judo is not a game, and I would not be the one who would do this. But, neither would I stand in the way of anyone who wished to do so." [paraphrase]. I do think, however, that if the 1940 Tokyo Olympics had come off and Kano were still living, there certainly would have been a demonstration, but not the kind which earned medals as it did in 1964. I do not think it was his dream for judo, but rather to bring the nations of the world together in sports.

    I think it is more likely that it happened because his true wishes were misunderstood, and as sporting as it was, it was a natural step, but I doubt his wishes, or rather, his intent with judo, was to make it into an international sport. He never pushed judo to be included while a member of the IOC, but to bring as many sports as he could to Japan, later to bring athletes to Europe and North America to compete, but Judo was not on his agenda for this purpose.

    That is a conclusion i've made from all material (including yours) I've been able to access and it is only an educated guess, but it seems to me his travel on behalf of internationalizing sports was independent of Judo. The Kodokan changed much, especially in the 1930s, but by that time, Kano was more a figure head than anything else. He did, in fact, complain of the lack of qualified teachers and the manner of the way judo was played. Rather than go ahead with an activity even he didn't support one-hundred percent, he said that the most important thing to do was to return to the way of Kodokan randori. This was not to help judo players become better at the sport of judo, but to help them understand the principles of the Kodokan, mainly the principle of Ju and the correct way randori was intended to be played.

    I do think self-defense was secondary, but not second to make judo a sport, as he did make a point of teaching women the finer points of self-defense. This made a lot of sense as he felt only men should play randori. Certainly, kata and self-dense were integral, at least early on. But I agree that his higher purpose was to internationalize judo and certainly randori was central to it.
    Last edited by MarkF; 18th August 2004 at 20:09.

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