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Thread: Q&A: Shinto Ryu

  1. #16
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    Default Initials, acronyms and all that.

    Russ,

    I meant TSKSR as Tenshin shoden katori shinto-ryu, the ryu that Mr. Relnick is part of, and KSR as Kashima-shin-ryu, the ryu that Dr. Friday is part of. All these acronyms can be confusing!

    Mr. Moses, thank you for your post. I thought Shinto-ryu may not be using it as "shinto religion", but I thought I'd ask. It is a very interesting post and I enjoyed the excerpt you posted. One of these days I will have to be a budo-bum and try to see as many ryu as possible, just for fun and appreciation, since America doesn't have an equivalent of the big national embus that Japan does (for obvious reasons). Do you guys often do any demos in Seattle?

    I wish I could ask more interesting questions, but you are doing a great job of providing history and a sense of what your ryu sees as important, I think, especially in that last post.
    J. Nicolaysen
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    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Initials, acronyms and all that.

    Originally posted by nicojo
    Russ,

    I meant TSKSR as Tenshin shoden katori shinto-ryu, the ryu that Mr. Relnick is part of, and KSR as Kashima-shin-ryu, the ryu that Dr. Friday is part of. All these acronyms can be confusing!
    AHh

    I think we need a Acronym Thread for Reference on E-Budo...it would stop unecissary posts like mine.

    I was thinking it could mean Kukishin Ryu as well...I guess that would be KSR as well?

  3. #18
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    Talking Kenbu Dance

    We can cut if we want to
    We can leave your friends behind
    'Cause your friends don't cut and if they don't cut
    Well they're no friends of mine!
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  4. #19
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    Default

    How many people are doing shinto-ryu then, in "your" branch? It would be interesting with a brief layout of the grading system. Do you have to do kenbu, tameshigiri and kata for gradings?

    Most of the kata on one of the links looks very much like zenkenreniai.

    http://www.saitama-iai.jp/iai_sibu.htm

    I guess you have to read japanese to find the reference to shinto ryu ?
    Roar Ulvestad

  5. #20
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    Default

    Here's a question: What are the waza like? Can you compare them to anything you have witnessed or experienced, or provide a flavor of them? Are the aggressive? Do they count on siezing the initiative, or are they counters?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  6. #21
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    Default

    The kata of the school is split between kihon, outside kata and inside kata.

    The kihon includes several "cutting to the four directions" pre-kata, three basic draws, basic cuts/tsuki and a batto section (fast nuku and noto from tate-hiza, hanmi, standing and walking). There is also a kihon waza for our fumichigae step change that's kind of a trademark of our movements.

    The outside kata share some commonalities with Eishin Ryu, though they are distinct to our style. I wish I had some video on the site, we might post a few clips before too long. Most (but not all) of the outside kata are done starting from seiza, we have no kata that start from tate-hiza (and what we call tate-hiza is again different than Eishin Ryu). I'm using Eishin Ryu as an example; because it's what I'm most familiar with outside of our school, and I think most people have some familiarity with it (from Seitei or its general popularity).

    The kata have a kind of logical order once you get to know them.

    First is shiho-giri (which is written as four direction killing as opposed to cutting). This is 4 fast cuts to the four directions, depending on the direction, a different leg is forward. Next, Tenchi is a seated response to a standing attacker. Iwao Nami introduces "walking along and somebody tries to kill you." This is kind of the first set and teaches how to move through the four directions, cut while standing up, and cut while walking.

    Next is what I call the directionals, these are similar to the Eishin Ryu kata of the same names: mae(I, II), migi, hidari, ushiro. These teach how to cleanly draw to the four directions, and develop a strong fumichigae. The thing that really makes these movements Shinto Ryu is fumichigae between the draw and the finishing cut; we switch our feet by jumping from a kneeling position. This is done partly to build leg strength, and partly to add the power of the legs and hips to a downward cut.

    The next set includes attacking from under the bushes (soku harai), ukenagashi (again similar, but done a bit differently), and responses to the sword being grasped (tsuka otoshi, kojiri gaeshi).

    The last set is about setting the foundation for learning the inside kata. Sure chigai is done from walking and cuts down someone to the left or right, Go Zume (I, II) responds to different attempts to restrain the arms from behind. The second is interesting because it uses a strike (head-butt) and then something almost like O Goshi simultaneous with cutting with limited arm mobility. Shin Myo Ken is a longer kata which teaches maai and tempo in addition to re-drawing after beginning noto. Rai Fu Jin introduces the ability to run and draw then cut while maintaining balance. It also introduces a different chiburi that is used in the inside kata. Yoshi and Suemono Giri are test cutting techniques (seated, leaping from a seated position and standing).

    Nuku: Shinto-Ryu draw cuts are long fast flicks to vital points as opposed to decisive "mowing" style draws. We train to develop both, but generally the nuku cuts cover a lot of ground and are followed up with a decisive two handed cut.

    Chiburi: The basic chiburi is similar to the small chiburi in Eishin Ryu, where the sword passes form left hip to right hip; the angle of the blade does not become flat as it does in Eishin Ryu. "Rai Fu Jin" chiburi is like the O-chiburi of Eishin Ryu's Mae, but the timing and feel is different. The tip is not dropped as the hand comes to the side of the head either, instead the sword projects straight back, and the actual chiburi is practically a cut.

    Noto: We have a basic noto that is taught to new students, then as a student approaches Shodan, (the same time they are learning Rai Fu Jin) they learn the real noto. The blade is put away with the edge vertical. Initially the saya and tsuba are very close and the sword is drawn out, but we work to have a very short noto. I recently started using shinken for all of my waza, so I've backed off a bit for safety, but with my iaito, I generally touched only the last 1-3" of blade to the back of my hand before the tip dropped into the saya. Even with my shinken, I'm only touching maybe the last 9-11". If done properly, it almost looks like you were able to put the sword directly into the saya without feeling for it.

    Well, congratulations if you made it to the end of this, gold stars all around.

    If David Pan or Scott Irey feel like commenting, feel free as you may be able to shed some light on what seems different and what seems similar.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  7. #22
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    Default

    Great posts, man.

    What is "fumichigae step?"

    And can you tell me a bit more about how the batto is different? Do you draw from farther away and reach for the opponent?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  8. #23
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    Default fumichigae

    Fumichigae has several forms, generally it means switching from right foot forward to left foot forward. In Mae for example, after the draw, your right foot is down out in front of you, and your left knee is down with your toes back (much like Eishin-Ryu). As you cut (kiri-otoshi/men/shomen/whatever) you jump just enough to switch your feet mid cut, so that by the time the cut finishes, you are in exactly the same position, but your left foot is forward, and your right knee is down. This move is also done from standing, sometimes without jumping up so much as "scissoring" your legs under you, other times (and some people) tend to get well over a foot (or two) of air under them when they perform this movement. One of my Sempai in Japan seems to have had his legs surgically replaced with springs, he just explodes into the air when he does fumichigae.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  9. #24
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    Default

    Originally posted by ulvulv
    How many people are doing shinto-ryu then, in "your" branch? It would be interesting with a brief layout of the grading system. Do you have to do kenbu, tameshigiri and kata for gradings?
    Missed answering this earlier, sorry.

    Our branch is about 12 people, and that's pretty much all that's in the US. There was supposed to be a dojo in LA for a while, but I never was able to confirm that.

    Grading is fairly typical of modern budo, 6-1 kyu, then 1 and up dan ranks. Our dan ranks are written as licenses however instead of "ranks" per se. The menkyo actually list the three schools and a stamp is placed over the column that corresponds to what the certificate is specifically for (ie. Shinto Sho Bu Ryu Iai-Battojutsu).

    For grading we demonstrate solo kata. Dan grading includes inside kata and a few paired versions of the outside kata. The inside kata aren't really taught to mudansha, they may see them in class, but the techniques (at least at our dojo) are reserved for people with at least a shodan. We send photos and video a few times a year to Mochizuki sensei of our tameshigiri in order to get specific feedback, and I'm sure how we're doing at that will affect who's being graded, but tameshigiri isn't a specific part of our demonstrations for rank.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  10. #25
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    Smile

    Bump!
    Carolyn Hall


  11. #26
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    Default Clarification

    Earlier I wrote:
    We also do kenbu in our branch, I only know one dance though, and not too well at that. It is fun, but that is more about mine than your group.
    Sorry to break in with my inanities, but reading back over my earlier post, I wanted to clarify that the kenbu at our dojo (we aren:t shinto-ryu) is not part of the iai syllabus, but rather additional study, separate from the iai. Didn:t want to cause any confusion. OK, back to Shinto-ryu!
    J. Nicolaysen
    -------
    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

  12. #27
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    Default

    Hi, i am new to both the site, and tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu, and am starting this with adam.a.wong from the YDM ninjutsu academy in malaysia, do you know him?

    His site is here for checking out: www.geocities.com/ydm_hombu

    Thanks!

  13. #28
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    Welcome, Xeo!

    Two things:

    Make a new thread about the art and your questions. It will get more attention that way.

    And sign your full name. It's an e-budo rule.

    Glad to have you!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  14. #29
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    Default

    Yeah, what Charlie said.

    My lineage is separate from Katori Shinto Ryu, I'd recommend starting a new thread. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

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