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Thread: Q&A: Kendo

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    Default Q&A: Kendo

    Here is a thread to answer questions and have dialogue on kendo. Hyaku offered to contribute, and many other e-budoka can as well. I will, and I'm sure DC Pan, Gendzwil, Melancon, and others will assist.

    Fire away!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  2. #2
    Caio Guest

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    Greetings,

    I'm a kendo practitioner myself, but I won't be so bold as to help you people... so here goes my Q:

    What is the difference between an "Ippon" and a "Yuuko Datotsu"?!
    Just a bit of information, both these questions are asked in the written exam required for shodan and up here in Brasil. The answer they provide is, though, equal to both, the reason of my doubt.
    By the way (#1) the person responsible for that IS my sensei, so no use asking him again. By the way (#2) didn't had the opportunity to ask my OTHER sensei about this (just too many other issues on the line ).

    Thanks.
    Your's,

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    What does everyone think about the move by some factions of the kendo/kumdo groups & practitioners to move to electronic bogu and scoring system ala Olympic fencing?

    We had a visiting kumdo practitioner recently who was all fired up about doing it.

    IMNSHO, I hate it. I hate everything about it and resent those whose are trying to move towards it. There is something organic about having live people judge the scoring. Like my kendo sensei says, it's just as much art as it is martial, and only a living breathing person can judge zanshin, which in my mind is the essence of kendo. If you want all of that electronic stuff, do foil fencing and leave kendo the hell alone. You need to devote all the energy to "fixing" things to your waza, and if this student visiting was an example of that movement, there was PLENTY about his technique for

    I also think this is about a bigger issue, which is trying to Westernize something that doesn't need it. I don't have it alla rticulated out in my head, but basically, although kendo does have sporting aspects to it, it still is enough of a martial art that to further 'sportify' it would lose the spirit of it. No martial art I've seen has been made better by making it profit driven, sporty, Olympic or electronic. I realize that makes me sound like something of a Luddite, but this is fundamentally not something that needs constant "upgrade" on a wide scale. New technology is great for NASA and for medicine... not kendo.

    What does everyone else think?
    --Neil Melancon--

  4. #4
    mareo Guest

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    They should just leave kendo the way it is. Kendo will surely lose it's spirit by making it more sporty.

  5. #5
    G. Zepeda Guest

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    How do you guys turn around after a run-through Do-uchi?
    Do you a) Turn towards the side of the cut, and thrust
    the shinai straight out into Chudan?

    b) Pull the shinai all the way forward whilst still facing
    away from the opponent and come down from the top into
    Chudan?

    c) Any other input would be appreciated.

    If I am not clear in my descriptions, please let me know, I am quite unfamiliar with many terms!

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    Mareo, I'm not sure I understand your question.

    Yuko-datotsu means a valid strike. You ask what is the difference between yuko-datotsu and ippon, I would suggest the difference is ippon only occurs in shiai (competition) and yuko-datotsu is something you should strive to achieve with all your attacks, in jigeiko (sparring), in everything. Yuko-datotsu means the shinai is pointed in the right direction and you are striking with the correct hasuji (angle of the blade) so that, if it were a real sword, you would cut with the edge, not hit with the flat of the blade. Yuko-datotsu also means employing ki-ken-tai-ichi, spirit-sword-body-as-one.

    As far as the electronic fencing thing goes, I am vehemently opposed to it. Passionately so. It is degrading and unnecessary.

    As we know, a competition is judged by three people. Between the three of them, they can determine what the points are. That's number one. Number two is that no electronic equipment in the world can measure what's discussed above, yuko-datotsu. No electronic equipment in the world will every tell zanshin.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Originally posted by Aozora
    What does everyone think about the move by some factions of the kendo/kumdo groups & practitioners to move to electronic bogu and scoring system ala Olympic fencing?

    We had a visiting kumdo practitioner recently who was all fired up about doing it.

    ...New technology is great for NASA and for medicine... not kendo.

    What does everyone else think?
    Electronic scoring is absolutely useless in Kendo. Whether a touch was made is practically irrelevant. The more difficult questions involve whether or not the critieria for yuko-datotsu were achieved by the kenshi. For that you need a thinking human judge. A box can't do that.

    Technology isn't necessarily bad. It is gradually creeping into the game. Alternative materials for shinai is one area. Though this isn't good in my opinion. Bamboo hurts bad enough why the heck we let ourselves get spanked by carbon fiber I don't know. BTW, I love carbon fiber forks on road bikes. It makes aluminum rideable.

    Also, we have a lot more modern doo-dads these days for Bogu. IMO it wouldn't break my heart if we could eliminate himo in lieu of some sort of modern fastening systems. My himo always seem to come untied at the worst time.
    Ed Boyd

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    Default Theoretical question.

    So can be yuko-datotsu be achieved to a non-valid scoring area?
    Ed Boyd

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    Aozora asked about electric kumdo (kendo:

    As a foilsman of some duration - I think it's terrible. Electrification of the weapon has ruined fencing. I see no reason to ruin kendo.

    If you want more imput on what electrification has done to fencing ask Maestro Nick Evangalista . He can fill your head with more than enough information.
    Theodore Roosevelt (really)!

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    Well said, Doc.

    So can be yuko-datotsu be achieved to a non-valid scoring area?
    Well, I'm tempted to say theoretically, yes. If you cut with ki-ken-tai-ichi and proper hasuji to me, say, buttocks (it happens sometimes going for doh) then I suppose it is yuko-datotsu, but not ippon!


    Gil:

    You asked about doh. Good question. Doh is, for me, the hardest cut. Getting it is very difficult. If it were an actual fight it might be easier, since you could just slash away without worrying about slashing your opponent across the elbows, chest, groin. But since you want to make a good clean kesa-giri-type cut through the doh, it's harder.

    Anywho, my opinion is that you would do A, and certainly this is how I do it. But try B in practice, the bigger, the more controlled, the better. Big doh, big follow-through, big turn-around.

    It has been my experience with all the waza that if you practice them big and powerful they get smaller and faster on their own. If you practice them small and fast they get too small. Which is not to say you shouldn't practice sashi-type cuts (sashi-men, sashi-kote), just to emphasize that you should cut big in practice. My thoughts, hope you get some others.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Originally posted by Caio

    What is the difference between an "Ippon" and a "Yuuko Datotsu"?!
    With all due respect to Charlie's philosophical ramblings on the matter, there is no difference. Yuko datotsu means valid point, as defined in the rules for kendo, found in somewhat outdated form (but still valid for this purpose) here.

    Now if you want to argue that all points awarded are not yuko datotsu, fair enough - but that gets into the realm of judging errors, not terminology.

    Originally posted by CEB

    So can be yuko-datotsu be achieved to a non-valid scoring area?
    No.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Default Olympics/kumdo/electronic scoring

    I think if we want to keep this discussion a productive Q&A session, the whole Olympics question should be avoided. It's been beaten to death elsewhere, and will take over the whole thread if we allow it. For the record, I'm against it and I'm with the overwhelming majority of kendoka.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  13. #13
    G. Zepeda Guest

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    I don't know if I had an "old school" sensei or not. For the first year or so, the shinai had to go ALL the way back, and hit you in the booty before the swing started...this helped me pick up a good habit and a bad habit. Good: all of my attacks start and come down from centerline, and the singular cut is executed right when my left hand is over the crown of my head. As I like to put it: The Do will not be telegraphed! The bad habit I picked up is going all the way back all the time, even during sparring. It gets me bashed all the time, and sensei has told me that I have progressed enough to only go back 45 degrees. Must I retrain my muscles to only go back the proper distance? Sensei said the only swing I should practice on my own is Men(footwork, conditioning, and zanshin play heavy into what sensei directs for solo practice). What is your take on this piece of advice?

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    Originally posted by G. Zepeda
    How do you guys turn around after a run-through Do-uchi?
    You should complete the cut by drawing through the body if going to the right, or leaving it straight out if going to the left. Either way you should end up in a sort of extended chudan as you clear away from the opponent, and then just turn around normally.
    For the first year or so, the shinai had to go ALL the way back, and hit you in the booty before the swing started...
    That drill is meant to teach you to swing fully, and also to be used as a warmup. I would never expect anyone to swing that big in jigeiko, even beginners. Personally I don't much like that drill because it encourages people to straighten their left elbow at the top of the swing in order to hit their butt.

    To fix your swing, concentrate in suburi on stopping the backswing with the shinai pointed straight back or higher. This happens when both your hands are at the same level at the top of the swing. Note that your left hand should still be above your head, and both elbows should be bent equally and naturally. If you have access to a mirror, use it to get good feedback on the top position.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  15. #15
    G. Zepeda Guest

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    gendz:

    That is normally how I perform (or try) the end of the do cut. I first learned a different way to do it and was told later the execution you are talking about. Originally, the follow through was made, and a turn around a la Men was performed. It was changed on me in the middle of class when sensei said that I "got the footwork for this down". Is it normal to have to pull the blade back towards your koshi, raise up an inch or so, and lower back into Chudan to score a point? I can hit do all day against even the nidan from Korea, but without the end part, I never, and I mean never, score a proper point. And my opponent never gives me the oppurtunity to finish up correctly ...

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