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Thread: Q&A: Kendo

  1. #16
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    Gil, I must confess I don't understand why they would be so picky about that bit. Normally when you turn around you lift the kensen a little bit, this is just to make the turn a little easier and to guard your kote and men as you come around. But to me so long as you were alert and ready and in a decent position for the turn, I'd award the point.

    I will say that doh is a difficult point to score and is usually not given for three reasons:

    1. Hasuji is wrong - if you are slapping doh with the side of the blade, it's no point.
    2. Zanshin is wrong - sloppy, out of balance zanshin is quite common with doh.
    3. Striking with no opportunity - people often throw a doh in hoping to connect someway, somehow - the judges are looking to see if you took advantage of an opening or created an opening to get the doh.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Talking Well...

    Originally posted by Caio

    What is the difference between an "Ippon" and a "Yuuko Datotsu"?!
    Well, literally translation of Yuko Datotsu is "Valid Strike". By that, it means the strike is done with the correct part of the shinai, or the "datotsu-bu" which is 1/3 the length of the blade with correct hasuji.

    Now, a valid ippon consists of several elements, namely "riai(logic)", "yoko-datotsu" with ki-ken-tai-ichi, and zanshin.

    So, while an ippon MUST have yuko-datotsu, yuko-datotsu is not necessarily an ippon, because there may not have been proper riai in the strike, or proper zanshin.

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  3. #18
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    From the rules:
    Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
    or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
    DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
    (spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
    (mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
    positive follow through of attack and strike),

    Riai (correct reasoning behind the attack, which I discussed wrt doh) is the only missing part from David's list and is in fact not mentioned anywhere in the English version of the rules. It's a sort of unwritten rule. But we're talking about shiai here, and the rules for shiai define a point as yuko-datotsu. Seems to me the question isn't what is the difference, it is more what other things go into making a yuko-datotsu/point that aren't written down or commonly thought of. Perhaps that was the intent of the original exam question.
    Last edited by gendzwil; 19th May 2004 at 15:41.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Default and now for something completely different...

    So at our parent dojo in Japan, many of the old-timers study Kendo in addition to Shinto-ryu. Last time we were there, one was particularly adamant that Kendo and Iai were parts of a whole as opposed to distinct arts. I have never done Kendo, and admit it's scoring system to be entirely beyond my ability to understand.

    My question: Do you study both, and do you hold that these arts are indeed parts of a whole? I suppose my reason for asking is that I have seen a number of relatively advanced Iai practitioners who also do Kendo, and it has always looked like two totally different arts to me. In Kendo you see robust physicality and percussive tight impacts, then the very same practitioner, when doing Iai, makes large slow sweeping cuts with a quiet body and (seeminly) little agression. From the outside, I cannot help but see the myriad of differences. Responses?
    Christian Moses
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  5. #20
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    Smile Here is a question

    Originally posted by CEB
    Just because a certain technique is not practiced in Shinai Kendo does that necessarily mean it is not part of Kendo ?

    Ed Boyd

    Here is a question for the Kenshi. It got overlooked in another thread. This was something I asked on the "no kesa geri in Kendo" thread that just sort of died. Maybe it is that our particular dojo was different in its practice of kendo. ( Maybe I should say former dojo, I'm not practicing Kendo right now, I'm training for triathlon and I swim on Sundays which used to be Kendo day for me ) But we would practice seitei iai from 3:00 to 4:00 then Shinai Kendo class would start at 4:00 and go to around 5:30. Then we would practice kata till 6:00 or 6:30. We did all 3 ( Iai, Shinai keiko, and kata) every class. So the question of no kesa giri in Kendo seemed wrong to me. I mean kesa geri is the showcase technique in Seitei Gohanme. I see nihon kendo kata and Iai as part of the total kendo. I am alone in thinking this? Or is kendo only what you do with a shinai?

    I can see how people would think something is excluded from kendo when a certain technique is not used in shinai Kendo. But, to me Kendo is much bigger than some people give it credit for. IMO, and I may be very well be wrong, but the reason i think techniques were probably taken away from shinai practice was to make kendo more challenging and help build stronger Kenshi. To me the most difficult thing one can do is to fight from chudan no kamae and defeat your opponents chudan no kamae. This we call honest kendo. No trickery or creative strategy, just honest hard work and honest hard attitude. I hope this makes sense.
    Ed Boyd

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    Sorry for stepping on Chris Moses' post we were kind of thinking the same sort of thing at the same time. I didn't see your post when I wrote mine.
    Ed Boyd

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    "Do you study both, and do you hold that these arts are indeed parts of a whole?"
    Yes.

    Note that paired kata are also part of kendo, one that frequently doesn't get enough attention, but an integral one; you cannot pass your dan ranks without them! The shinai kendo, plus kata, plus iai, are considered adding up to the whole of kendo. I think this is the approach some people arrive at personally, but I also think that the official governing body of kendo has made this a policy.

    This Furyu article says that seitai gata, the standardized set, was developed by the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei for the purpose of introducing kendo-ka to iai. The article also said it was developed to allow standardized grading for iai.

    http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/seite.html

    I did a little searching to see if I could find a statement or charter on the ZNKR's views toward iai. I know students are encouraged (not required) to practice seitei, and it is hoped the seitei will serve to push the kendo-ka into a deeper study with one of the iai branches (or whatever's available).

    But maybe I'm stating the obvious? What you really want to know is, how compatible are they? How are they reconciled in the mind of the practitioner?

    Let me meditate on it and get back to you, and get out of the way so that other more knowledgable people can comment. My immediate answer is I still have so much to learn. Doing iai reminds me of the shortcomings of my kendo and leaves me with a lot of questions but deifinite impressions of how the two might coalesce in a real encounter (that I'll never have). For that alone, it is invaluable.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  8. #23
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    I studied Kendo first, then on to Batto. The techniques and lessons I learned in Kendo surely help me on a day to day basis with my studies of Batto.

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    No worries CEB, it was interesting that both posts happened at nearly the same time.

    Charlie, I can see how theoretically Iai informs Kendo and Kendo informs Iai, but what I have seen in practice (and I fully admit that I have seen a very limited subset of the people doing this) is what looks to be totally different swing, posture, and footwork mechanics. I know in my own study, there is a tendency to treat tameshigiri as its own thing, separate and isolated from the kata I study. Only when my kata is such that I would be going through makiwara, and my tameshigiri is using the same techniques/cuts that I would in my kata do the two relate in any way other than both using a sword. So do kendoka struggle with the same dichotomy? Are the arts related in theory or in practice?

    CEB, what are techniques but codified trickery?
    Christian Moses
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  10. #25
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    Originally posted by chrismoses
    CEB, what are techniques but codified trickery?
    If technique is codified trickery, how is it that senior practitioners can tell you exactly what is going to happen to you, and proceed to make it happen?
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by DCPan
    If technique is codified trickery, how is it that senior practitioners can tell you exactly what is going to happen to you, and proceed to make it happen?
    Easy, by trickery!
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
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  12. #27
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    Well Zen Ken Ren seem to be keen that everyone does something as well as Kendo to reach a better understanding. They really pushed it here by going out and buying Iaito for all the Kendo teachers. To be frank they don't have the time and never will.

    Perhaps as yet perhaps no one is too happy with the compatibility. First it was Seitei. Now its Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho.

    I can't help thinking of the old adage "If you want to learn something new learn some thing old"
    Hyakutake Colin

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    http://www.hyoho.com

  13. #28
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    Originally posted by chrismoses
    ...

    CEB, what are techniques but codified trickery?
    Not sure if I understand, but if you asking what are some examples of what I consider trickery one example from my old playbook would be to lower the kensen and create an opening in my defense to draw in an attack which I would 'in theory' be prepared to counter. To me this isn't 'honest' kendo but more in the realm of gamesmanship. Well even if this isn't true this sort of tactic isn't in line with how Sensei taught us Kendo. I think some if not most of this comes from a weakness I have for not wanting to lose and in the end I cut myself short I think. This kind of thing may work well against some of my peers, but against Sensei nothing works. At least if I maintain proper pressure with a good chudan no kamae my kensen had a better chance of touching him and nullifying the ippon as he procedes to attack with full vigor in response to me not being aggressive and attacking him first. Never let Sensei get too bored in Jigeiko.
    Ed Boyd

  14. #29
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    I study both MJER iai and kendo. I love and enjoy both, both add to each other and I can easily see both being two sides of the same whole.

    OTOH, I don't think you have to study both in order to "get" budo. It's long been my opinion to be a "real swordsman" you're going to have to kill real people with real swords. Anything else is just self-cultivation and thus, whether it's koryu iai or gendai kendo, you're likely to get to the same state of being with just one or the other or both after long years of practice.
    --Neil Melancon--

  15. #30
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    Talking

    Originally posted by chrismoses
    Easy, by trickery!
    Ippon!

    Seriously though

    In my mind, a trick is a trick, if the opponent doesn't fall for it, that's it. Moreover, a trick should only work "once", if your opponent is worth his salt. Then again, it only has to work "once" if you are really using it huh?

    That being said, I prefer to think of waza as "limiting the opponent's viable choices" and ultimately pushing your opponent into a "lose-lose" situation where regardless of his response, he's toast

    Originally posted by CEB
    Not sure if I understand, but if you asking what are some examples of what I consider trickery one example from my old playbook would be to lower the kensen and create an opening in my defense to draw in an attack which I would 'in theory' be prepared to counter. To me this isn't 'honest' kendo but more in the realm of gamesmanship.
    If you just stand there and leave your kamae open to play mind games with the other person, that's one thing.

    However, if you limit your kamae so that only your men is open, then step-in to force the opponent to make a choice, being ready for the possible responses (i.e. opponent takes the men opening, opponent backs up, opponent freeze up), then I think that's a step above trickery.

    Trickery only works if your opponent falls for it. Technique will work regardless of whether your opponent falls for it or not.
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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