Likes Likes:  0
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 64

Thread: Q&A: Kendo

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    894
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by DCPan
    In my mind, a trick is a trick, if the opponent doesn't fall for it, that's it. Moreover, a trick should only work "once", if your opponent is worth his salt. Then again, it only has to work "once" if you are really using it huh?

    That being said, I prefer to think of waza as "limiting the opponent's viable choices" and ultimately pushing your opponent into a "lose-lose" situation where regardless of his response, he's toast
    That pretty much fits my definition of a trick. An example of what I'm talking about: last year at the Eastside matsuri, your group had a guy who had stellar tip control. I remember the nearly digital up-down-up-down-up-down of his shinai as he set the tempo for the match. Was it technique? You betcha. Was it a trick? You betcha. He set a visual tempo that acted as a distraction and then acted on it to get a point. An Aiki example: if you've ever been 'thrown' by Don Angier's visual wall building, do you call that a trick or a technique? It works even when he tells you what he's going to do. Will it work 20 times in a row? Probably not, but neither will the perfect men cut, eventually you will see it coming and do something to keep it from working.

    If you just stand there and leave your kamae open to play mind games with the other person, that's one thing.

    However, if you limit your kamae so that only your men is open, then step-in to force the opponent to make a choice, being ready for the possible responses (i.e. opponent takes the men opening, opponent backs up, opponent freeze up), then I think that's a step above trickery.

    Trickery only works if your opponent falls for it. Technique will work regardless of whether your opponent falls for it or not.
    The first example there sounds kind of like mugamae of KSR, would that be a technique or a trick?

    I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have a hard time finding the line. Squeezing with the pinky to have a strong grip, technique or trick? Having your weight forward so you can move faster, technique or trick? Pushing into your opponent's space so that they're threatened, but can't reach you, technique or trick? Strong kiai so that your abdominal muscles are integrated into your attack, technique or trick? See what I'm getting at? Like I said though, I find the rules for kendo unfathomable, so it's probably something I'm just not going to get. I'm OK with that.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    Originally posted by DCPan

    Trickery only works if your opponent falls for it. Technique will work regardless of whether your opponent falls for it or not.
    I don't buy that definition. The very definition of anti-trickery in kendo is a straight men. If your opponent doesn't fall for it, you can lose kote or doh.

    To me, trickery is anything that takes you far out of your normal kamae and puts you at serious risk. Katsugi-men, for example. Other examples might be the gedan trap (tm), the windshield-wiper fake-out, the stutter-stomp men feint, the tip-bounce off the floor into men. But as has been pointed out, it's a grey area. Any action you take is a potential opportunity for your opponent.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    68
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by DCPan

    If you just stand there and leave your kamae open to play mind games with the other person, that's one thing.

    However, if you limit your kamae so that only your men is open, then step-in to force the opponent to make a choice, being ready for the possible responses (i.e. opponent takes the men opening, opponent backs up, opponent freeze up), then I think that's a step above trickery.
    I just wanted to comment on something.

    David gives an excellent example in the first paragraphe I quoted of something that isn't kendo: namely breaking your own kamae and "waiting" (it's not "trickery" because it's not kendo in the 1st place). If you're going to make an opening it has to be dynamic and active, not with "dead feet" and without spirit.

    I think the difference here is in how the opening is created: either it's done as part of a dynamic exchange between the two kenshi or it's just one kenshi "removing" himself from the exchange by essentially trying to sucker the opponent in (and not very well mind you).

    This is the kind of behaviour you apparently don't see in Japan because there are people there able to smack you around for doing something as foolish as purposely breaking your own kamae and planting your feet. However, where I live (and I'm assuming in other places far removed from kendo "centers") there are people that use this kind of "tactic" and can get away with it (give me a few years and they'll regret it ).
    Alexander Monteil
    Resident flyfisherman
    McGill Kendo
    www.mcgillkendo.ca

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    740
    Likes (received)
    0

    Talking Defining stuff

    Originally posted by gendzwil
    I don't buy that definition. The very definition of anti-trickery in kendo is a straight men. If your opponent doesn't fall for it, you can lose kote or doh.
    Gees, this is kind of like defining what is a sport and what is a martial art huh?

    IMHO, while my statement is poorly contextualized, your example of "why" it doesn't work really don't fly either.

    Rarely is technique perfectly executed, so a straight men can fail simply because it wasn't 100% or simply your opponent is even stronger...that has no bearing on the technique vs. trick distinction.

    My emphasis on the distinction of technique and trick is that in my mind, a technique set up your relationship in such a way that the myraid of the responses which your opponent can have are to your advantage. In my mind, trick is more all or nothing, and almost useless if your opponent know what the trick is. So, a technique is repeatable while tricks usually aren't.

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    Originally posted by AlexM

    This is the kind of behaviour you apparently don't see in Japan because there are people there able to smack you around for doing something as foolish as purposely breaking your own kamae and planting your feet.
    Well you'll see any number of high school kids or even college age ones jerk their shinai all over the place in an effort to get you to move and then rely on their speed to get to the point. I don't think Japan is entirely bereft of wonky kendo.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    68
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Well you'll see any number of high school kids or even college age ones jerk their shinai all over the place in an effort to get you to move and then rely on their speed to get to the point. I don't think Japan is entirely bereft of wonky kendo.
    Ah Neil... always looking down on those lovely high-schoolers and college kids. You underestimate them.

    They do wonky stuff, yes. But it's wonky kendo, as opposed to wonky non-kendo/chambara that I've seen. Despite the "wonkyness" they all usually possess a certain amount of fundamentals that make what they do kendo, as opposed to the crap I've seen here.

    And besides... wonkyness can be beautifull too.
    Alexander Monteil
    Resident flyfisherman
    McGill Kendo
    www.mcgillkendo.ca

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,613
    Likes (received)
    106

    Default

    I would not give my wonky kids an inch. Those on the team are far from wonky.

    Seem to remember taking one to Ninriki Dojo in London and watch him go through whole dojo "twice" in Kachinuki.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Montréal, Québec
    Posts
    68
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I should have mentionned that I think that HS and College kendoka in Japan are far less "wonky" than Neil gives them credit for (I had omitted that from my post).

    Even when they're not "straight", they're straight... hard to explain really. Even when they have "bad" posture, they have good posture.

    Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the merits of High school and college kendoka in Japan.
    Alexander Monteil
    Resident flyfisherman
    McGill Kendo
    www.mcgillkendo.ca

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,613
    Likes (received)
    106

    Default

    Originally posted by AlexM
    Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the merits of High school and college kendoka in Japan.
    Me neither. But anyone is welcome to come to my dojo and find out.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Question:

    For those that study kendo and iai, or kendo and kenjutsu: can you do everything that you do in kendo with shinken/iaito?

    What can you do and what can't you do? And does that mean that if you can do it with shinai but not shinken, it's not valid?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Saskatoon, SK, Canada
    Posts
    1,526
    Likes (received)
    58

    Default

    Originally posted by AlexM
    I should have mentionned that I think that HS and College kendoka in Japan are far less "wonky" than Neil gives them credit for (I had omitted that from my post).

    Even when they're not "straight", they're straight... hard to explain really. Even when they have "bad" posture, they have good posture.

    Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the merits of High school and college kendoka in Japan.
    I understand what you mean - bent-over sideways as they tag a kote, they can still look better than a lot of people here. And I'm sure the top kids there would take care of me in shiai. I was responding to Alex saying wrt trickery that "this is the kind of behaviour you apparently don't see in Japan". Based on my experience with the visitors we get here from time to time, you see some stuff that isn't perfection. Not everyone belongs to the team, ya know.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  12. #42
    Caio Guest

    Default

    Greetings,

    Originally posted by hyaku

    Perhaps as yet perhaps no one is too happy with the compatibility. First it was Seitei. Now its Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho.
    Hyakutake sensei, could you please explain what is that "Bokuto Ni..." ?! It interested me...

    As for another question, it seems that many people here consider Iaido an integral and inseparable part of Kendo training. I allways thought that ZNKR considered Iaido as a complementary part of the study of the Katana, and would only "recomend" it to Kenshi who are godan and up. What is the "correct" or maybe the most common view on this issue, specially in Japan?!

    Your's,

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Bergen Norway
    Posts
    925
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Do a search on "Bokuto Ni Yoru" on this forum, and you will find a couple of threads which mentions it, and you will find a link to descriptions of these excercises.
    Roar Ulvestad

  14. #44
    Caio Guest

    Default

    Greetings,

    Thank you Mr. Ulvestad. I forgot to do that. Sorry to bother you people...

    Your's,

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    1,861
    Likes (received)
    89

    Question Body and Hips

    Has anybody on the forum experienced Itto Ryu. My question is whether Itto ryu uses any body/hips? The thing that always struck me as really different with Kendo is the absense of body and hips usage, But then again I'm an old Karate guy. ( fyi, gamaku is a term we use in karate but this may not even be Japanese, hard to tell sometimes when a word is Japanese proper and what is a hogan term sometime ).
    Ed Boyd

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •