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Thread: Q&A: Yoshida-ha bujutsu

  1. #16
    Roger Conant Guest

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    Wait a minute, Richard.
    This is a very informative format and no responsible member here wants it to turn into some kind of sniping or gotcha. But—
    You were informed that Angier was informed by Nawa that Nawa traced the lineage back to 1600s? That’s a lot of passive voice in one sentence. Previously you noted that Yoshida is a very common family name and that it would be difficult to ascertain just which Yoshida it was based on historical documents. Now we are told that just that has been done, and been done all the way back to the 17th century.
    It seems to me that to be intellectually honest, vague, passively-voiced claims of ancestry do not have a place in this kind of discussion. What is the nature of this research? If Nawa or Angier wish this to be kept private, fine. But inferences to it should not then be used to try to substantiate a history.

    On a related matter: not very many ryu were sui generis. They didn’t just spring up out of nowhere, as you must know. They had antecedents. If you look at Owari Kan ryu sojutsu, for instance, you can see elements of Saburi ryu and Shinkage ryu. Do you know anything of the genealogy of your ryu? Does it have elements or a “feel” that is like another ryu? Any close relatives?

  2. #17
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    Roger,

    What?

    Don't like passive voice?

    Nawa sensei told Don Angier that he traced the Yoshida family and Yanagi ryu back as far as the 1600s during Angier's recent visit to Japan.

    So now that we are comfortably in active voice the question is: Are you calling Nawa sensei a liar?

    Until we hear more I think Rich is being responsible. Leaving it in the passive voice communicated the tentative nature of the information.

    On the other hand I now know the answer to my question, "Now what will they say?"
    Doug Walker
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    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    I find nothing dishonest with Rich stating effectively, "This is what we know, this is what we don't. We've heard this but haven't been able to verify it..."

    Like Rich said, if Don made the whole thing up, he's the greatest martial genious in history. There just isn't a reason why he would do that? It's not like he's getting rich off of his huge international organization...

    Take the witch-hunt elsewhere. If you don't buy it, fine don't buy it.

    Have you trained with Don or Rich/Johnny/Joe and suspect the art stems from something you are familiar with or are you just trolling?
    Christian Moses
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    Roger,

    I'm going to have to mirror Doug's and Chris' comments.. I've presented what I know and am answering questions with the information available to me. I was asked to do a Q&A about what we do, not stand trial to an inquisition by a single doubter who has done the same to me in past threads. I understand you have reservations about the legitimacy of the lineage of our art, you have voiced them on more than one occasion, but I do not. I have no great need to prove anything to anyone, I am just sharing what I know. I stated before that I wish I had more to go on, but I don't. You can either accept what I have shared here or not, that's up to you, I've told you what I know.

    FYI, the person who informed me about the conversation between Angier sensei and Nawa sensei was Toby Threadgill. He had spoken to Angier sensei directly when I had not. If you doubt him, Angier sensei, or Nawa sensei, that's on you. I presented what I know and answered your question with what available information I had.

    Yes I did say that Yoshida was a common name and would be difficult to trace... but I was also not aware that someone such as Nawa sensei was actually trying to do so. I just found this out last night right before I posted it. The information from Nawa sensei is admittedly not all conclusive as of yet, and I do not know what documention or resources he used to acquire this.

    I've answered and given all I know about the lineage up to this point, the research continues and apparently by those with greater knowledge and resources than I. I will not answer any more question on this issue. If you have question about the art itself I will be glad to answer those.

    Incidently, I have seen similarities to some different arts. Onno-ha itto ryu for one, Shindo Yoshin and Yoshin ryu. And I once was invited to view a training session in Shinkage ryu (Owari-kan line) and some of the short sword technqiues were virtually identical. Oddly enough, Nawa sensei had said that when he traced Yanagi ryu back to the 1600's, the Yoshida at that time had been involved with the Yagyu, but I do not know the full nature of that involvement.

    Charlie,

    Actually, it was more that I had a feeling of what I didn't want than what I really wanted. I began my martial arts path when I was around 12 years old and sampled various arts in my search for the one that was for me. I had wanted to study a complete art, but I couldn't nfind any. I did a stint in Aikido for about five years with Pat Hendricks sensei. It was while uchi deshi in her dojo that I first attended a seminar by Angier sensei and knew that that was what I was looking for. I just knew. But it was some time before I would be able to do something about it.

    At this point I an not going to say whether the art is "verifiably" koryu or not, though it shares more with koryu. I do find the differences significant, not only in content, but intent and... feel. It's just a different animal.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  5. #20
    Roger Conant Guest

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    If I had written that someone had just told me that he’d talked with someone who’d consulted with someone else who had insisted Mr. Angier’s system was a fraud, would you confront me with my being vague? I think so. And had a person written here making such meandering charges, others, along with me, would have written to ask them to be more direct. It would not be fair to cast aspersions with such indirect accusations so it should also be out of bounds to make similar kinds of defenses. That was my point.

    Mr. Angier’s system presents a unique perspective for many reasons, not the least of which is the lack of objective mention of the ryu in any literature on the subject. So questions addressing apparent inconsistencies are not unreasonable are they? Nor should questions that might suggest other avenues for finding out more about the past of this school be considered evidence of “doubting” or “trolling” or of calling anyone a “liar.”

  6. #21
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    Roger,

    “If I had written that someone had just told me that he’d talked with someone who’d consulted with someone else who had insisted Mr. Angier’s system was a fraud, would you confront me with my being vague? I think so.”

    Actually no… I probably would not care. Just as I do not care that you have doubts about the art. I might say, “he’s entitled to believe what he wants”. The only reason I have responded to this at all is because I agreed to answer questions about the art on this thread. And, the only reason I am put in a position of defending is because you are questioning the information I provided in answering your questions. That you don’t like my wording or the manner in which the information got to me from its source does not make it any less valid. I could have easily just stated that a Japanese martial arts historian had traced the art back to the 1600’s and left it at that. But I was relating it as I received it. It doesn’t concern me if some people think it’s a fraud, some of those whose opinions are greatly respected do not, and have even helped in trying to validate the art historically.

    “Mr. Angier’s system presents a unique perspective for many reasons, not the least of which is the lack of objective mention of the ryu in any literature on the subject. So questions addressing apparent inconsistencies are not unreasonable are they?”

    Well apparently after some research Nawa sensei has found mention of the art. That you or I do not have access to such literature is not surprising in the least. There is much more about these arts that is not readily available than what is. Fortunately an experienced Japanese martial arts historian such as Nawa sensei does have access and has even endeavored to research it a bit.

    I am not sure what inconsistencies you were referring to, I’ve said the same things all along and so has Angier sensei. Granted, we know more now than we did five years ago, and more than five years before that. The research continues and perhaps one day we will have the whole picture. But until then I have presented what we have, if that is not sufficient for you then I apologize but until we have more that’s all there is.

    Our history/lineage is far less controversial and inconsistent than many out there. We have far more to support our art than there is to condemn it. That there is not as much information as we would like is considerably different than making contradictory statements, or statements that are in exact opposition to known facts.

    Perhaps I should be asking if there is any evidence that the claims, lineage, history, family photos, and content of the art are fabrications. I would be interested to know if there is something that actually contradicts what we have, other than just a lack of information in known sources. Having no information is not the same as having information that proves one wrong.

    The purpose of this thread was to answer questions about the art, not to defend its legitimacy. If it had been I most likely would not have agreed to do it, as I have no interest in defending the art to those who doubt it, it’s their loss as far as I am concerned. There is a wealth of knowledge here that is rare in this country.

    This is the very last time I will address this issue.
    I will simply ignore further posts on this subject, I have presented all the information that I have.

    Is there anyone else who’s actually interested in the art itself?
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  7. #22
    David Maynard Guest

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    Hello,

    I find it very interesting that Nawa Sensei is in correspondence with Yanagi ryu’s Angier Sensei. I met Nawa Sensei many years ago in Japan and had the pleasure of discussing the Bansen Shukai with him. He’s an interesting old buzzard and one bloody good researcher in my opinion. He’s certainly not afraid to dispell a myth here and there. As I remember it, he rather effectively dispelled much of the romanticised ninja lore with his research.

    Crikey, he must be over 85 years old these days. If Nawa Sensei has really shown interest in Yanagi ryu there’s a darn good reason for it. Something of value has piqued his interest. If he’s recently had direct contact with Angier Sensei in Japan as has been reported, this is even more illuminating. In my opinion he’s not one to waste his time or passion chasing phantoms. If Nawa Yumio comes to some deeper conclusions concerning the history of Yanagi ryu you can rest assured they are pretty tightly researched.

    Mr Conant, you posted this:

    “As I understand it, there is no independent substantiation of Don Angier’s Yanagi ryu, aside from the affirmations of some Daito ryu practitioners in Japan who acknowledge that it “looks like” what they do.”

    You understand wrong. I’m curious. Have you been living under a stone or do you hold some strange bias that colors your judgement on the topic of Yanagi ryu? The reason I ask is because your above statement along with several previous ones are totally inaccurate given the info in the public domain and judging from my conversations with many individuals intimately familiar with this controversy. My sensei, Takamura Yukiyoshi was quite knowlegable concerning Yoshida Kotaro by way of his grandfather Ohbata Shigeta. As has been stated many times, Takamura Sensei was completely convinced of Angier Sensei’s links to Yoshida Kotaro. His convictions required evidence much more substantive than the flimsy and oddly veiled dismissal you have tried to promote above. Apparantly Nawa , like Takamura is so convinced of Angiers legitimacy that he has desired direct correspondence with Angier Sensei. In Takamura Sensei’s case his purpose for such correspondence was to gain insights into the spectifics of Yanagi ryu and evaluate its further development outside Japan. This personal correspondence continued frequently until Takamura Sensei’s death in March of 2000. In personal conversation with me, Takamura Sensei mentioned that in his grandfathers personal notes there is mention of several mokuroku that were in the possession of Yoshida Kotaro, specifically ones including the study of tessen and jutte. In these same notes Ohbata Sensei always referred to the art taught by Yoshida Kotaro as “Yoshida family budo”. In a book published by historian Stan Pranin, Kondo Katsuyuki also mentions one of these mokuroku. ( Conversations with Daito ryu Masters by Stan Pranin, page 163. ) Curiously Takamura Sensei mentioned that he never heard the name Yanagi ryu mentioned in association with Yoshida Kotaro. The reason for this is rather odd but moot since an old photograph of a young Yoshida Kenji does exist with a makimono in the background clearly spelling out “Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei” It is my understanding that my TSYR compatriot, Sensei Toby Threadgill has had this original photo roughly dated by an expert to between 1910 & 1940. In my mind this is very convincing hard evidence that an art by the name of Yanagi ryu was in existence and being taught within the Yoshida family around 1920. As noted above, further evidence of this conclusion has been confirmed by Katsuyuki Kondo and Shigeta Ohbata.

    So, the question of Yanagi ryu’s existence prior to Don Angier is not really at issue here. What is at issue here is what were the origins of Yanagi ryu and how extensive was the original curriculum. What was the curriculum prior to Yoshida Kotaro. How much of the curriculum has survived. How much has the original curriculum evolved or changed while under the care of Sensei Angier?

    These are the legitament questions that may never be answered without the assistence of an authority like Nawa Yumio.

    The best to you all,

    Dave Maynard / TSYR

  8. #23
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    Two points/comments.

    1) I hope this thread does not antagonize Richard. Because it was created to promote friendly (even if it takes the form of debate) dialogue here at e-budo's sword arts forum, not to provoke the Q&A source. Surely, such correspondence can be carried out privately, if one wishes to engage in this kind of one-on-one discussion? I feel I must stress this point, because if Richard feels attacked in this Q&A, he could stop participating (which we would respect) and it could discourage other persons from participating in like Q&A's, and the entire community of the sword arts forum will suffer for it. I'm not a mod, I just entreat you to keep it friendly.

    2) Richard, if you're not to distracted, of if you can put it into words, I'd love to hear more speculation on what's different about the animal, the intent, the feel. It's just something that I think about since here in cyber-space so many gendai and koryu people have come together and not really understood the point of view of the other. I ask without agenda and give full disclosure that I favor a combative-sports-type environment (my background is in kendo, but also kickboxing and judo, mixed-martial-arts type stuff, and that fumbling around I call iai). I'd just love to hear more about the other sphere. IF, and only if, you feel you can comment. I admire that you locked onto the ryu and patiently went after it.

    Best,

    CK
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    P.S. I'd like to hera more about the unarmed. What are the strikes and takedowns like?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Charlie,

    I don’t really have any experience in competition oriented martial arts. I seem to lack the competitive gene and was never really interested in pursuing them. Though I do appreciate the advantages of such training, it’s just not for me. I am more of a traditionalist, which may be a fault but oh well. But as such I can’t really comment with any authority on how it differs.

    What I do now is quite far removed from my study of Aikido, even though some of the techniques might be similar. Intent wise, well… cleaving your enemy in two or slipping a knife between his ribs kinda goes against many of Aikido’s ideals. And that is reflected in the techniques, the timing and the distancing. The general feel is also different. Shorter, softer, more direct movements and blends are preferred over large circular movements, and hard throws. We are always trying to move in and get close enough to use a weapon, even if we are not going to. I supposed that’s one of the reasons for the lack of a competitive aspect to the art. To put it in a ring or to put limitations on it in the way of rules would be taking it out of the context for which it was intended.

    The striking aspect of the art is more akin to kung fu type striking methods than karate. There are various different types of strikes with different parts of the body, pressure points are used also but usually in conjunction with something else. We don’t like to rely only on pain. The strikes are not done only upon entry or as a finish, but are also sometimes applied through the course of a technique. Striking itself may be the technique, as we have strikes that also serve as throws, or drops. Kicking is also employed but generally only low kicks are used.

    Take downs usually are more like just dropping the person where they stand and maintaining a hold of a limb to pin them or tie them up. We don’t really drag or pull them down. Throws and take downs are usually applied with vertical downward pressure. We usually try to keep them close, again with the intent of deploying a weapon, usually a sword if we’re putting them on the ground.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

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    Smile

    Bump!
    Carolyn Hall


  12. #27
    Jason W Guest

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    Richard,

    I recall on another thread here on e-budo someone mentioning the time they had a chance to handle a shuriken in the possession of Angier Sensei.

    I notice in the list of weapons you presented at the beginning of the thread that shuriken jutsu was not present.

    Does Yoshida-ha bujutsu have a shurikenjutsu component, or did you not include it on the list for a reason?

    regards,

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    Shuriken is not a formal part of the curriculum, though we do practice with them. It is not something that was passed on to Angier sensei from Yoshida Kenji so there are no set kata, I think it's something he picked up along the way. We do have a shuriken target set up in the dojo and have incorporated it into our training. I did not include it on the list because it is not a complete art within the system like the other arts. We've also done training in manrikigusari, cane, short stick, and even kusarigama, but they are all more like collections of techniques rather than systemized arts.
    Last edited by Richard Elias; 5th August 2004 at 16:58.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  14. #29
    Jason W Guest

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    Thanks for that Rich.

    Its very refreshing to finally read an open discussion on your art.

  15. #30
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    I know it's not a sword but, those shuriken - how are they thrown (underhand or overhand)? What kind of damage do they do when striking flesh?

    I myself taught myself to throw one so that it would stick into the garage when I was a kid, although I'm sure it was just me figuring out how do to it, same with a pocket knife or hatchet.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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