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Thread: JJJ vs. BJJ (a question, not a debate)

  1. #1
    Todash Guest

    Question JJJ vs. BJJ (a question, not a debate)

    I know this has most likely been asked numerous times, but can someone give me some of the main differences between these 2 arts, I remember hearing somewhere that JJJ has more stand up striking work, but that is about all i know. Thank you.

    -Malcolm Fliesler

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    JJJ has about a gazillion different flavours so it is hard to generalise. Some might focus on standing joint locks, some on throws, some on weapons work, some on techniques from kneeling, etc.

    Most modern jujutsu taught in the western hemisphere is based on judo, but with strikes, wristlocks and 'dirty' techniques for self-defense added in to the mix.

    Most JJJ has no (or very little) randori (free-sparring). If the class you check out does spar, then chances are you have either wandered into a judo dojo by mistake, or else you have stumbled across a modern style that has decided to adopt a MMA / BJJ approach to its training.

    BJJ differs from JJJ in both its training methodologies (heavy emphasis on randori) and strategies (heavy emphasis on positional dominance on the ground). It is also a 'principle' based MA, whereas much modern JJJ is 'technique' based.

    Really, the best way to tell the difference is to try both. Alternatively, if you do enough reading on the web you will get your answers soon enough. Just bear in mind that the answers will depend on which side of the fence they are coming from.

    Finally, judo (although it emphasises a different phase of the fight) is far closer to BJJ in training and application than (most) JJJ. If you can see the difference between judo and JJJ, you will also be able to tell the difference between BJJ and JJJ.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  3. #3
    Todash Guest

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    Originally posted by MikeWilliams
    Most JJJ has no (or very little) randori (free-sparring). If the class you check out does spar, then chances are you have either wandered into a judo dojo by mistake, or else you have stumbled across a modern style that has decided to adopt a MMA / BJJ approach to its training.
    Umm, if <i>Most</i> don't spar, then how do they know that the techniques work well, or that the students are dong them right? I can't reacl exactly, but the quote

    "Without real fight, there is no proof. Without proof, there is no trust. Without trust, there is no respect."
    - Masutatsu Oyama

    is a good example of what i'm talking about. Or is free-sparring different from regular sparring, and I'm just missing something. Could you elaborate more on this?

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    Originally posted by Todash
    Umm, if <i>Most</i> don't spar, then how do they know that the techniques work well, or that the students are dong them right?
    Hah! Exactly!

    There are ways of introducing 'aliveness' and progressive resistance to your training without resorting to free sparring, and I also believe that sparring should be structured somewhat if it is to be a useful learning tool...but that is a huge subject, and for another thread sometime.

    To come back to your original question, most JJJ seems to adopt a kata-based, co-operative training methodology (think Aikido), whereas BJJ adopts a randori and resistance based training methodology (think Judo).

    YMMV.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  5. #5
    MarkF Guest

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    I disagree somewhat with the comment that most do not have randori. They do, it is more restricted than what you would find in judo.


    Most have some kind of randori, "free" sparring, but when they do, some things are out.

    As to Oyama Mas, he called the fighting room "Imparting wisdom." I've been hit hard, and have to agree there is a certain kind of widom felt in friendly fighting.

    Mark

    PS: Whether or not there is sparring/randori in modern forms of jujutsu, it does not mean there will not be any activity to prove the application of technique. It is only a different way of learning what is effective and what isn't. As far as those who don't "spar" you will have to ask them, but in a much more restriced way of learning judo-based jujutsu (the waza were exactly the same but drilling repeatedly was the way one learned such technique), It is effective, depending on your purpose.

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    Originally posted by MikeWilliams

    To come back to your original question, most JJJ seems to adopt a kata-based, co-operative training methodology (think Aikido), whereas BJJ adopts a randori and resistance based training methodology (think Judo).
    Just to be different and to show that there are no absolutes in this particular area of study, the jujutsu ryuha I train in (Tenjin Shinyo ryu) conducts training via both kata and randori.

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    You also need to take a look at the underlying cultural theories. BJJ is a 20th century Brazilian art developed in part to play in Vale Tudo matches, whereas JJJ is a 17th century Japanese art developed in part to teach warrior values to peacetime soldiers and bureaucrats.

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    Mark, Steve,

    You are both correct, of course. I was trying to make a generalisation about teaching methods, and the different emphasis placed on randori - which is central to any BJJ and Judo class, but (IME) given lesser importance in JJJ. I did try to add as many "most" qualifiers as I could.

    Anyhoo, I didn't expect this thread to be up long enough for my inedequate knowledge and research to be scrutinised...

    I should have left it to Joe - he said it best!
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

  9. #9
    Todash Guest

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    Thank you for all your info, out of curiosity, is it possible to estimate the number of styles (not counting small/family styles, but more of the major ones)

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    In an article called "Combative Arts Ranking Systems," Donn Draeger estimated that by the 1960s, there were 1,700 registered sword ryu, plus 725 jujutsu ryu, 460 spear ryu, 425 halberd ryu, 412 iaido ryu, and 412 archery ryu -- and those numbers ignored schools teaching ninjutsu, stick-fighting, ball-and-chain-fighting, karate, and sumo!

  11. #11
    Todash Guest

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    sorry, I should have been more specific, I just wanted Jujutsu, buit that was some good research, thank you. Out of curiosity (again), anyone know what style uses the Kwan Dao?

  12. #12
    MarkF Guest

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    If you are talking about the weapon, wouldn't it be kung fu (as a generalization), and other CMA in that grouping? (See Inside Kung Fu, Sept., 2000, IIRC it, and fairly recently. I rarely read anything like this, but I did read this.

    The Way of Kodokan Judo's founder, is peppered with Dao teachings.

    Are either of these what you mean?


    Mark

    PS: Mike, yes, I know, I was being the pain in the backside I can be sometimes.

  13. #13
    Todash Guest

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    Yeh I was talking about the weapon. Not sure why I like it, it just has some aesthetic properties that appeal to me. Thank you for the info.

  14. #14
    ChaseCoppers Guest

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    Regarding the kwan dao, yes, it is a Chinese weapon.

    Just look into the external Chinese arts and it won't take you long to find a place that uses the kwan dao.

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    In Japan the quan dao is called bisento. It is used by some ryuha.

    Sincerely,
    Marc Coppens
    Genbukan Tenzan dojo - Belgium
    www.tenzandojo.org

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