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Thread: Q&A: Araki-ryu, Buko-ryu

  1. #16
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    Default To Anthony M.

    In regard to your question which spirit (killing or life-preserving, in short) is nurtured by Araki-ryu, the answer is both or either. The texts of the ryu have an essay, allegedly written by the founder (this is getting a little old - citing myself as a source, but see "The Origins of Araki-ryu" in OLD SCHOOL), in which he, Araki Mujinsai, writes about his teacher. In short he says that he got really strong, got intoxicated by his power, and embracing evil, almost lost his soul, recovering himself, sort of, at the last minute. If I'm correct that that man, Fujiwara Katsuzane was, in fact, Miyamoto Munisai, he, among other things, murdered his close friend at the behest of his daimyo.

    That's one of the reasons, I believe why the "esoteric" traditions, which often are spiritual practices, are so important, because they provide a channeling - a vessel - which might contain the power to take life which one can, conceivably acquire.

    Maniwa Nen-ryu? My usual caveat - I'm an outsider with opinions, not knowledge of the ryu. Nen-ryu has a history of some remarkably pugnacious indivduals enrolled in their ranks -but at the same time, its last headmaster informed me that protection is not only the ryu's purpose - (including protection of the village it resides, but the culture of the place) - but even its techniques are based on protection. They have a very distinct way of fighting in which they draw out a committed attack from the enemy and counter before it lands. NOT, you attack me and I counter, exactly. More like a counter-punch in boxing, that starts "later," but lands first.

    I believe that Maniwa (at least when I last saw it a few decades ago) was able to maintain its integrity because it was so intertwined in the village culture that, on an unconscious level, one became a "Maniwa man" or "Maniwa woman" almost at birth. The esoteric training, which is, in part, to imbue one with a non-rational, 'instinctive" living out of the ryu in oneself, was occurring simply by living in Maniwa. They absorbed it.

    However, in most cases - without the psychological, spiritual training which is the basis of the esoteria, you can't get under the founder's skin to grasp what he was trying to teach, and why he did it the way he did.

    BTW - I've heard that Maniwa Nen-ryu has fallen on harder times. Last I heard, the high school club closed for lack of interest, and new young practitioners are few. The last soke died at a relatively young age - a fine man he was - so one worries for the future.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

  2. #17
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    Ellis,

    You'll be pleased to learn that the local high school Nen ryu club is still functioning and that a number of younger people have joined in recent years. Many are from the local area while some travel from Tochigi and Tokyo. So should the right two or three continue to train diligently, and come to some understanding of the ryu's teachings, the next generation can be entrusted with the tradition.

    Bill

  3. #18
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    Mr. Amdur,

    Thank you for your extensive response. Your thoughts on esoterica have brought a specific, if somewhat moot, question to mind. To quote your last post:

    <quote>I believe that Maniwa (at least when I last saw it a few decades ago) was able to maintain its integrity because it was so intertwined in the village culture that, on an unconscious level, one became a "Maniwa man" or "Maniwa woman" almost at birth. The esoteric training, which is, in part, to imbue one with a non-rational, 'instinctive" living out of the ryu in oneself, was occurring simply by living in Maniwa. They absorbed it.</quote>

    Given this, do you believe it is possible for an outsider (not necessarily a foreigner but any person raised outside of Maniwa whether it be in Kyoto, Sendai, or New York) to be imbued with the "spirit of Maniwa?" Does the survival of the Maniwa Nen-ryu, in it's purest sense, rest on the shoulders of the inhabitants of Maniwa?


    Mr. Jensen,

    I'd also like to hear your thoughts on this if you have the time. If I remember correctly, you practice Maniwa Nen-ryu and I would greatly appreciate the thoughts of a practitioner of this ryu.

    It is good to hear that the Maniwa Nen-ryu has the chance to continue on for decades to come. It would be a shame to lose such a fine martial tradition, especially one as distinct and unique as the Maniwa Nen-ryu is.

    My thanks again!

  4. #19
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    Default To Anthony M. & Bill J.

    I'll write generically, because Bill can answer more specifically as to Maniwa (and if he chooses, generally as well!!!! - because of his many decades experience with koryu).

    First of all, I'm so happy to hear from you, Bill, about Maniwa's recent turn in fortune. The village and ryu has such a special character, sort of like the Chen village for t'ai chi, and it's wonderful that the future, potentially, looks good.

    So, generically, can an "outsider" be imbued with the spirit of the ryu. Yes. Absolutely. BUT

    1. Not if the person is a kata/ryu collector who thinks more is better and assembles a list of menkyo - or practices a little of this or that
    2. Not if they train, long or short, without learning - truly learning - the gokui of the ryu. Without achieving that level, they are like an arch without the center stone.
    3. Not unless they have a committment to the ryu that is passionate - that one would be willing to sacrifice quite important other aspects of one's life to continue.
    4. It's also Darwinian - you can do all the right things, and be wasted air and space - you don't have the body/neuro system to get the methods, or you don't have the character.


    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

  5. #20
    Shin Buke Guest

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    So many great answers bringing so many more questions! ^_~

    Do you think that a koryu sensei has a responsibility to not bestow menkyo on a practitioner who does not properly embody the spirit of the ryu? Do you think that witholding menkyo in such a fasion would help maintain the "spiritual integrity" of the koryu bujutsu? Do you think such a practice would seriously hamper the chances of their continued survival?

    Also, what is your take on many of the various ryu founders who trained in various arts only to establish systems of their own? I'm curious about this becase, as I recall, the deepest most profound elements of a koryu are reserved for higher levels of teaching. Learning omote or even more advanced forms doesn't constitute comprehensive knowledge (and certainly not mastery) of a given ryu. What sort of bearing did this have on systems that those warriors founded? I'm especially curious as to how you think this relates to O'Sensei and his founding of Aikido as he gained menkyo in Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu as well as training in a number of other ryu (I believe he had some Itto and Shinkage-ryu training and Daito-ryu was certainly a strong influence among a plethora of other arts). Keep in mind I have yet to read your book, "Dueling with O'Sensei" (to my shame ^_~).

    Once again, thank you for you answers, they are very enlightening. Also, Mr. Jensen, I would love to hear your views on these questions. One can never have too much information. ^_^

  6. #21
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    Default Re: To Anthony M. & Bill J.

    [QUOTE)
    So, generically, can an "outsider" be imbued with the spirit of the ryu. Yes. Absolutely. BUT

    1. Not if the person is a kata/ryu collector who thinks more is better and assembles a list of menkyo - or practices a little of this or that
    2. Not if they train, long or short, without learning - truly learning - the gokui of the ryu. Without achieving that level, they are like an arch without the center stone.
    3. Not unless they have a committment to the ryu that is passionate - that one would be willing to sacrifice quite important other aspects of one's life to continue.
    4. It's also Darwinian - you can do all the right things, and be wasted air and space - you don't have the body/neuro system to get the methods, or you don't have the character.


    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com [/B][/QUOTE]

    So Ellis...I understand the ideas of psychological organizing that happen in a Koryu or at least I think I get the theory..Would you say that its the same in a Gendai ryuha. For example my own study of Shinto Ryu. We definitely have principals that organize the ryuha and esoteric teachings. It is a deep study though perhaps not the width and breadth of a koryu art.
    Just wondering.
    Best,
    Jeremy
    Jeremy Hulley
    Shinto Ryu Iai Batto Jutsu
    TNBBC

  7. #22
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    Default To Anthony M. & Jeremy H.

    Anthony M. -

    I think that any tradition should die a natural death if one doesn't have suitable successors. One of the uglier scenes in Japanese martial arts are the unfortunately not infrequent physically incompetent and/or intellectually deficient and/or morally degenerate and/or doing-it-this-generation-because-daddy-did-it last. Better it dies.

    A new "ryu" stands on it's own merits. Let's say someone trains a number of years in Itto-ryu and even tho' not deep in that tradition, achieves his own gokui. He develops a set of organizing principles, and sets up shop. It stands on it's own merits, not Itto-ryu's. BTW - Daito-ryu has to be considered the main, 90+% influence on Ueshiba, at least as far as martial arts goes. All the others including Yagyu Shingan-ryu were peripheral.

    Jeremy H. - if what you do is set up on classic ryu-ha principles, of course it would be the same, wouldn't it?

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

  8. #23
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    Mr. Marcarelli,

    Ellis' response nailed it precisely. It is possible from someone from outside of Maniwa to "be imbued with the spirit of the ryu." The critical issues are dedication, technical mastery and a deep understanding of the ryu's teachings. But this holds true for any ryu.

    Today there are a number of members from different prefectures. But not so long ago Nen ryu was limited to Maniwa if only because it was so isolated. One of the senior members once told me that when he joined, over 40 years ago, he was seen as an oddity because he came to train all the way from Takasaki, a whopping 10 miles from Maniwa village...

    Bill Jensen

  9. #24
    Shin Buke Guest

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    Thank you both for you answers, they have been very enlightening. I'm enjoying this thread very much. ^_^

    Mr Jensen,

    Only 10 miles?! Wow, Maniwa must be a very sheltered town. I'd love to visit it next year while I'm in Japan. I didn't think Japan housed many secluded villages since the country is so widely populated and developed. It sounds like quite a place.


    Thanks again!

  10. #25
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    Bump
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  11. #26
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    Ellis, this is something I've always been curious about. You have trained in modern combative sport as well as koryu. Do you think koryu does a better job of preparing one for hand-to-hand combat, as good a job, or not so good? Or are your studies of modern and old combatives too intertwined for you to make a distinction? I guess what I'm getting at is koryu enthusiasts seem to feel there is a koryu difference, an extra-special something that is a cut above. Do you agree?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  12. #27
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    Default To Charlie K.

    First of all, what is meant by combat? I've had a few scuffles in my life, a little sparring during training - but have never been in combat - defined it as a fight for one's life or limb, be it a street fight or battle. So, personally, all my training may have contributed to me, but I don't have any first hand experience to go on. I just like to do this stuff.

    Germane to your question, I have never heard one sentence among Japanese veterans which state that koryu gave soldiers any advantage over the practitioenrs of gendai arts in WWII or vice versa. Yes, I've read or heard statements such as "thanks to kendo, I had the developed the endurance to get through the battles of Burma," etc. Or, "WWII was hell, but I trained in Kasumi Shin-ryu, and thanks to that training, I got home alive." But other than Tohei Koichi's dubious claims about his service in WWII, I've never read anyone make a claim of special powers or skills endowed to them by their training. And I never heard that koryu practitioners performed better on the Burma Road or the Guadalcanal or Saipan than judoka or kendoka (or even the dreaded masters of MJER'')

    As for "koryu enthusiasts seem to feel there is a koryu difference, an extra-special something that is a cut above," depends who you talk to, why they say it, what they mean by it, and who cares anyway.

  13. #28
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    Mr. Amdur,

    I was browsing your site just a few minutes ago and a question came to mind. I'm curious about how your martial training has effected your life. What lead you to train in the martial arts and what has encouraged you to continue their study? How has your martial training changed who you are, how you relate to people, how you react to various situations, and how you percieve yourself and others?

    I realize these are fairly personal questions so I apologize if I've pried into an area that you would rather not discuss. If you are willing to answer, however, I would be very interested to learn of your experiences in this matter.

    My thanks!

  14. #29
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    Default To Anthony M.

    I've written as much as I want to about that in Dueling with Osensei.

  15. #30
    Shin Buke Guest

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    $20 for your personal insights on your martial training sounds like more than a fair price to me. Sold! ^_~

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