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Thread: Differences between koryu and seitei

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    Default Differences between koryu and seitei

    What are the differences between koryu and seitei jo? Take kihon, for instance. Seitei jo has the same set of kihon that koryu uses, does it not? I've been told they're done differently (at least some of them) between koryu and seitei, many of the details of the differences I don't really remember and I don't need to know them all anyway, of course, but I'm wrestling with the idea that they're different in the first place. Here's one, for kuritsuke, in seitei we catch the sword on the tsuka between the hands. Does koryu catch under the wrists? I know in a real fight that's the way it's gonna happen, but is it practiced that way? What about other kihon?

    I'm not asking for the deep dark secrets of koryu jo, since obviously I'm not a member of the ryu, but mostly I'm trying to figure out why seitei jo exists in the first place (though I'm pretty sure I've figured that one out).
    Ric Flinn

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    order, timimg & pace, small technical differences. The seitei were created for kendo players to do a little side study with jo is my understanding.
    Robert Deppe

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    Default Modern seitei

    ...is now however much closer to the original koryu since the revision of the ZNKR Jodo Manual in 2002/2003ish.

    Gone are the square on kendo stances.
    Andy Watson

    Minoru hodo
    Kobe o tareru
    Inaho ka na

    http://www.simenergy.co.uk

  4. #4
    Mekugi Guest

    Default Re: Differences between koryu and seitei

    Originally posted by Ric Flinn
    [B]Here's one, for kuritsuke, in seitei we catch the sword on the tsuka between the hands. Does koryu catch under the wrists? I know in a real fight that's the way it's gonna happen, but is it practiced that way?[B]
    Why don't you try SMR jo out? Then you can see for yourself!!

    -Russ

  5. #5
    Mekugi Guest

    Default Re: Differences between koryu and seitei

    Originally posted by Ric Flinn
    [B]Here's one, for kuritsuke, in seitei we catch the sword on the tsuka between the hands. Does koryu catch under the wrists? I know in a real fight that's the way it's gonna happen, but is it practiced that way?[B]
    Why don't you try SMR jo out? Then you can see for yourself!!

    -Russ

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    Default

    In a perfect world, I'd walk right down the street and take the free introductory course to SMR jo, in a heartbeat. But, alas, I live in the middle of Midwest, USA, where I consider myself lucky to have what training I have in seitei jo. So out of curiosity I thought I'd post my question here, thinking maybe somebody would want to stick their neck out and talk a little bit about it. Since it's been pretty slow around here last couple years.
    Ric Flinn

  7. #7
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Ric Flinn
    In a perfect world, I'd walk right down the street and take the free introductory course to SMR jo, in a heartbeat. But, alas, I live in the middle of Midwest, USA, where I consider myself lucky to have what training I have in seitei jo. So out of curiosity I thought I'd post my question here, thinking maybe somebody would want to stick their neck out and talk a little bit about it. Since it's been pretty slow around here last couple years.
    You have to go for kengaku, usually up to three times, before you can begin to try it. Dave Lowry is south of you in Missouri, perhaps you could contact him and arrange a visit sometime?

    To be honest, *if it isn't worth going see, it really isn't that important a question* is the attitude you are going to run into.

    Always,

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    Originally posted by Ric Flinn
    So out of curiosity I thought I'd post my question here, thinking maybe somebody would want to stick their neck out and talk a little bit about it. Since it's been pretty slow around here last couple years.
    Guess we're all too busy training....
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

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    Default The three blind men and the elephant

    Warning: Annoyed Kim here, you may want to skip this post.

    I've been checking through some of the threads here in the jo section and I'm amazed to see the same guys saying the same things for the past 2-3 years.

    To the "koryu" guys (or better yet, those who don't practice jo at all) who pronounce on seitei but aren't in the ZNKR and have never practiced seitei... What in the world are you thinking?

    Vast differences between koryu and seitei? If you say it often enough it becomes true? We've had 4 menkyo kaiden here in Guelph over the last 2 years, 2 from Fukuoka and 2 from Tokyo, all teaching Zen Ken Ren jo. What I've noticed with my own beady little eyes is that the difference between Fukuoka and Tokyo koryu is greater than the difference between seitei and koryu. But by all means, continue to speak with authority out of the firm knowledge that you read it in Black Belt or here on the net.

    From October 7 to 10 we'll have a couple of Menkyo Kaiden - Hachidan jodo instructors in Toronto (Furukawa and Ari sensei from Tokyo). Anybody who wants to come and investigate the differences between seitei and koryu for themselves is welcome to come and do so.

    Does anyone here truly believe that a menkyo/hachidan is going to radically change their approach to jo depending on whether or not they're teaching koryu or seitei? Why would they?

    To Jack who said seitei is marketing... it's not, the ZNKR is non-commercial, there's little reason to market. Note my comments about differences in koryu above... the IKF is a large organization with many hachidan and many menkyo members, all with their own lines of "koryu" jo. Seitei is intended to provide a common standard worldwide so that we can all speak from the same page during gradings or tournaments. Note that in the ZNKR seitei is NOT a watered down "introductory" set to see if you pass the test for koryu instruction, nor is it for the kendo guys to "dabble" in jo every second Saturday afternoon. It's jodo done in a common way so that everyone can get together to train without adjusting your kata every time someone new stands up in front of the room. Anyone in the ZNKR can see this.

    Now if we want to talk marketing... how about "those who do the martial arts in that big organization over there are doing a watered down version that isn't really as good as what we do over here in this one-man operation with our secret handshake". I've been reading about how this or that art is "better than" the ZNKR/IKF version for 20 years now, guys if it's better than good for you but yammering away about it simply sounds like comparison marketing to me.

    Come on guys, open your eyes a little and look beyond the computer in front of you for your information. You're all welcome to Toronto in October for jodo and Guelph next May where we'll be hosting the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu koryu guys as well as the menkyo/hachidan jodo guys all at the same time. The May seminar is open to anyone from any organization, as it has been for the last 14 years. You want to know if seitei is different than koryu? Come find out. Please, no more "well I heard that seitei was created for...".

    Kim.

  10. #10
    Kenji Fujiwara Guest

    Default

    Mr. Taylor,

    With all due respect, Seitei and Koryu are different -- seigan for an example is radically different. In Hissage, uchidachi uses a different weapon. I found other aspects such as timing, distancing, and rhythm also quite different. Perhaps the differences are a function of my training.

    Regards,

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    Kim, I didn't mean it was marketing for ZNKR. I meant it was marketing for Shindo Muso Ryu! How else does a Kyushu koryu with an offbeat weapon get 10,000 members in half a dozen ryuha? The ZNKR is a feeder system as far as SMR guys are concerned.

    ZNKR of course would have a totally different outlook. Thanks for bringing us your perspective.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

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    Default Sorry, not blind!

    Hi all,

    I've taken gradings in Zen Ken in Japan and I hold a license in Shinto Muso-ryu. They are the same, but different. As in many things Japanese, it is "casu by casu." I remember training for my sandan (hm--it was a fair few number of years ago now). I had to get together a couple times with a woman from another dojo, and we had to go through a list (provided by her sensei) of important technical differences and make sure that we remembered to do it "correctly" according to seitei jo.

    In some lines, seitei sequence is used, but the techniques are identical to those in omote, chudan, and ranai (except seigan and hissage). In other places, a clear distinction is maintained (sword handling, timing, and distancing are quite different). Some places, only the koryu sequences are practiced; in yet others, only seiteigata is taught. I've also experienced first-hand in Japan a situation where MORE THAN ONE menkyo kaiden (in fact, I believe it was five or six) taught the seiteigata in a way that was quite different from the way they taught the koryu. No one thought it was strange to maintain the differences--it only created difficulties when one of the less-experienced students, who had been doing more koryu than seiteigata, went to a grading.

    One of my aikido teachers was also a senior student (a nanadan) of Yoneno Sensei. He commented to me that in general the maai in the seiteigata was supposed to provide for an additional margin of error, and that he had noticed, at my gradings, that I tended to cut those margins in a very "koryu-teki" way.

    The seiteigata was created to teach the cops, many of whom had kendo experience. It is a selection from the koryu, with certain modifications (presumably to make larger group instruction of kendoka more viable, but I don't know that for an absolute certainty--I have heard it from senior folks, both Japanese and not, who were around when the seiteigata was developed, and there are certain technical clues that indicate this might have been the case, so I'm inclined to go with it). Today, it functions more as a lingua franca, but only in a limited sense, as there are so many different interpretations of it.

    Many things that come from Japan are not black and white. As Relnick Sensei likes to say, everything is in shades of grey, and two seemingly (at least to the Western mind) contradictory things can be true at the same time (I seem to remember writing about this in my first book, some seven or eight years ago). Shinto Muso-ryu and the ZNKR seiteigata are the same and different; most Japanese I know don't have a problem with that. Can we all agree to think Japanese here, and accept the contradiction, and let the matter rest? Thanks!

    Cheers!

    Diane Skoss

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    Default Not blind, but mush for brains

    Hi all,

    My esteemed spouse questions the state of my gray matter these days, with good reason. Please emend the statment above regarding seiteigata being developed specifically for the cops. It t'aint so. The kata was developed for kendoka to be able to learn some jo; many cops were kendoka, so one would assume that they were among those who trained in the seiteigata.

    Cheers!

    Diane Skoss

    P.S. This entire discussion has been focused on the techniques of Muso-ryu and seiteigata; ZNKR and menkyo-lines of Muso-ryu are organizationally and administratively quite distinct and not the same, but different.

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    Default ZNKR Jo v SMR

    Kim,
    in your words:
    We've had 4 menkyo kaiden here in Guelph over the last 2 years, 2 from Fukuoka and 2 from Tokyo, all teaching Zen Ken Ren jo.
    The teachers have been teaching ZNKR jo, not SMR. It is my understanding that your event is a ZNKR event, with ZNKR grading. So the teachers would be representing ZNKR (regardless of their SMR standing...)

    Has this subject of difference ever been broached with the teachers?


    Regards,

    Eric
    Eric Montes

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    Eric

    I can't see a problem with what Kim has said, and in fact the only ambiguity lies in the following;

    the difference between Fukuoka and Tokyo koryu is greater than the difference between seitei and koryu
    That is, which koryu. Besides Kim is entitled to his opinions as much as the next person. Diane also succinctly explained;

    Some places, only the koryu sequences are practiced; in yet others, only seiteigata is taught. I've also experienced first-hand in Japan a situation where MORE THAN ONE menkyo kaiden (in fact, I believe it was five or six) taught the seiteigata in a way that was quite different from the way they taught the koryu. No one thought it was strange to maintain the differences
    So why can't we just agree that from a waza viewpoint they're cousins (including the various menkyo lines) within the same family.. and that the key or main difference is in the number of kata practiced between seiteigata and koryu.

    The differences, actually variations, really don't matter and the rest is just semantics for the arm chair critics or ryu-ha zealots. We should all just leave it there as Diane has admonished IMO.

    Regards
    Last edited by gmlc123; 18th August 2004 at 03:56.
    Greg Clarke
    清隆会 Shinto Muso Ryu
    兵法 Niten Ichi Ryu

    "Seek out the middle of the two we's in I"

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